Congestion Charge

[Footie]

It looks like the idea to make extra money out of the poor motorist has taken another step forward with Greater Manchester accepting a congestion charge.

City congestion charge plans backed - Yahoo! News UK

Amazing what a £2.8 billion sweetener will do.

It's got to be good news for electric bikes but I sense the moped raising its ugly head above the humble electric bike when the chips are down

I must look at the world differently: because to me, another tax (that's all the congestion charge is) will do little for the less well off, simply drive them off the road onto the pathetic UK public transport system.
And the well off, they will just pay a little more.
It's a percentage game - it only hurts those at the middle or lower end.

That’s my view - what's yours?
Congestion charge good or bad?
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[coops]

According to BBC News in London congestion is down 21%, bus use up 23% and cycling up 83%, though I don't know how they got those figures.

It was said in a news item on growing congestion in India that "cars cannot meet the transport needs of the majority of the (urban?) population", and I think that should have been known here and tackled more effectively a long time ago. Ironic that roadbuilding and improvement has increased road use by cars etc. which government now want to reduce by charging.

They're supposed to be improving public transport before the charge can be introduced, but I don't see how that will take the strain and increased bus numbers may reduce some congestion but will increase air pollution, very bad for cycling and city dwellers' health.

A local news item reported taking 40mins to go 3.5 miles on the M60, thats 5.25mph.

Still, its an opportunity for electric bike rental from the M60 (outer zone boundary) or A6010 (inner zone boundary)... on fair weather days at least .

Stuart.

[flecc]

Those figures on the London improvements are undoubtedly genuine and are an annual progression. The change in cycling levels as I see them is astonishing, and any disbelief I have is that 83% seems too low.

I'm 100% in favour of congestion charging and as an owner of two e-bikes and two cars, I regard it as a big success.

As well as the advances Stuart mentions, there's a real move towards smaller lower powered cars, a number of electric cars have been sold, and hybrid sales of cars like the Prius have been buoyant. Mopeds have gained, but to nothing like the extent of cycling.

Public transport had grown considerably and struggles to keep pace with the demand, but at least there's thousands of new and better buses, (the maligned "bendy" being only a minute part of the fleet). New trains and tube trains are arriving currently, and the Oyster card fare scheme is a real success and has spread to include buses, tube and some mainline now, with more to follow.

Nearly all young people and all old people travel free, and though a few youngsters have abused the privilege at first, transport police are getting to grips with that and all such changes settle down with time.

Much of this has been financed by the congestion charging of course, and it makes a change to see what is a tax come back to us in such a tangible form instead of being spent on armed attacks on other countries.

There is a downside, many smaller businesses were hit, but the overall London economy has continued to grow in strength and remains a major subsidiser of other parts of the country.
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[john]

Can't wait to see some electric car suppliers set-up in Manchester

[flecc]

Originally Posted by john

Can't wait to see some electric car suppliers set-up in Manchester

This supplier is the main one John, but many Mancunians might be too amply proportioned to fit in.

That's what comes of thinking chips are fruit towards the "five a day".

Incidentally, I love the "free sat nav" offer at the left on that web page. It's range is 40 miles at best!
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[coops]

I really didn't mean it to sound like I doubted those BBC figures for London, which it might have done, just that I really don't know how they were measured .

I hope Manchester does invest in some more new & cleaner buses: much of the existing fleets seem very polluting. There has been a north/south regional operator divide (largely between Firstbus & stagecoach) since deregulation of the bus service many years ago and some newer, seemingly cleaner buses (some bendy) operate mostly on 'frequent service' northern routes, but both north & south still having many small operators running older stock, especially on local routes, in the scrummage to run Manchester buses... I've heard it said that lorries and buses are usually the biggest source of pollution on city roads.

Extending the tram network may help, but it will never be as extensive as the London rail network and many of our local rail routes are long disused by trains, such as the local 'fallowfield loop' now an offroad cycle & footway many miles in length! I think most people are extremely cynical that public transport can be improved enough to provide a fast, regular and extensive service, though they'd probably hate to have to use it on principle - its not as accessible or widely accepted as, say, the London tube network.

Re electric cars in Manchester, I remember keeping up with what looked like a G-wiz once on the Torq, though it was at nighttime!

Stuart.

[carpetbagger]

i am all for reducing traffic and improving public transport to improve the envir oment but....how much money will be spent on designated cycle lanes to improve safety for cyclists.....not very much if any at all is the answer. I also feel that any congestion charge should be earnings related,,it will drive poorer people off the roads and improve travelling times for those who can afford it,,,after all whats a few quid to somebody who can afford to drive mercs bmws and range rovers..
We pay tax on our wages,tax on a new car,special tax on a new car,road tax,petrol tax...parking fees......all these taxes were supposed to improve our existing public transport network.Where is the money going ???
Only the wealthy will be able to drive soon...i good move for those involved.

[flecc]

Originally Posted by coops

I really didn't mean it to sound like I doubted those BBC figures for London, which it might have done, just that I really don't know how they were measured .

I hope Manchester does invest in some more new & cleaner buses: much of the existing fleets seem very polluting. There has been a north/south regional operator divide (largely between Firstbus & stagecoach) since deregulation of the bus service many years ago and some newer, seemingly cleaner buses (some bendy) operate mostly on 'frequent service' northern routes, but both north & south still having many small operators running older stock, especially on local routes, in the scrummage to run Manchester buses... I've heard it said that lorries and buses are usually the biggest source of pollution on city roads.

Extending the tram network may help, but it will never be as extensive as the London rail network and many of our local rail routes are long disused by trains, such as the local 'fallowfield loop' now an offroad cycle & footway many miles in length! I think most people are extremely cynical that public transport can be improved enough to provide a fast, regular and extensive service, though they'd probably hate to have to use it on principle - its not as accessible or widely accepted as, say, the London tube network.

Re electric cars in Manchester, I remember keeping up with what looked like a G-wiz once on the Torq, though it was at nighttime!

Stuart.

I realised that you weren't casting aspersions on the figures Stuart, but since there's so many examples of dodgy statistics these days, I was just illustrating that these for once did have substance. There were exhaustive surveys before introducing the congestion charge of course, it being the first anywhere, so the "before" facts were all recorded accurately. The "after" is easy of course, with all entry points permanently camera and sensor monitored.

You will get the new buses I'm sure, and we've had no trouble there. The first new batch we had on our tram feeder route weren't ideal being a bit noisy for 5am to 1 am operation in a residential area and we complained, thinking little chance of anything done. Very quickly they were replaced with Enviro buses, much quieter and cleaner, not bad on a single complaint. They've also added bus shelters at every stop. We do have the advantage of a blanket transport organisation though, TFL (Transport for London) covering all buses, trams, tubes, cycle routes, maps and facilities, the main roads and even with some main line control now.

Carpetbagger's comment on cycle routes should be looked after as the provision is being written into the Manchester scheme as it was with London, and cycling is crucial to the success of congestion charging. Those administering it won't miss that point, so I think you'll see many improvements.

The most important thing is to have the right person driving it forward, and we've been lucky to have Ken Livingstone behind ours from the start since he is absolutely committed to cycling. Although Boris has now replaced him, once again he's very pro bike and a daily cyclist and only today has launched an attack on local council provision of road humps, partly for their environmental ill effects, but as he says, because they are so awkward for cyclists. He wants to do as one of our North London borough councils has done and get rid of all of them.

In summary, if Manchester gets just half the benefits we've gained, you'll be well pleased.

Of course we still moan, it's the Englishman's right.
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[HarryB]

Sorry to make a contrary note as a Londoner but these are my experiences. I have cycled in into London on and off since 1990 and can say that the congestion charge has had little benefit for the cyclists. There are some parts of London now where the congestion is horrendous and is made up, in the majority by buses and black cabs. Of course this is a nightmare for the cyclist - at least with cars you can get around them but with buses you are stuck behind them together with the black fumes. Horrible! They are mostly empty even at peak hours (I kid you not). I counted five in the space of 1 mile towards Holborn, with a handful of people in each one. As a cyclist I have nothing good to say about the bendy bus and it would be better to have smaller buses as they would be better utilised on some routes (and less dangerous).

There have been very little provisions made for cyclist bar advanced stop lines, but I am told there are some cycle routes in South London. We still have road planners who seem to think putting a large island in the middle of the road will benefit traffic flow. I would like them to sketch on an envelop what happens to a cyclist when they are overtaken at such a pinch point (or any pinch point for that matter).

The solution to a lot of the congestion is obvious - get rid of the vast majority of traffic lights. The vast majority that are left should be used for the benefit of pedestrians. I have lost count of the number of times in London when the traffic lights are out of action and the congestion just vanishes. We could even be radical and get rid of road markings and road furniture to slow the traffic down. High vehicle occupancy lanes rather than bus lanes. I am sure there are solutions out there but I am afraid we will get more of the same.

Londoner's have turned to cycling not because of the congestion charge but because public transport is horrible - tubes packed, trains expensive and buses too slow. Of course the 7/7 bombings gave a big helping hand. So best of luck for Manchester but if you are a cyclist don't hold your breath.

[flecc]

Harry is right that South London where I am has benefited far more, and our cycling facilities range from improved to really excellent. I'm not surprised that Central London conditions are quite bad in some ways, but those I know who cycle in from the South are not anything like as negative, so possibly the conditions on the trip in are a major influence in the view, which I can well understand. Although it's regrown a bit, I understand the total traffic volume in the congestion zone is still 16% down on pre-zone levels though.

I benefit from a complete new tram system, new bus routes and mostly brand new buses, and some amazingly good roofed over cycle parking facilities. Cycleways are very variable, ranging from lines at the edge of the road through joint use pedestrian/cyclist routes to completely separated dedicated cycleways, some well separated from motor vehicle traffic.

I don't know what happens in North London at the weekends, but on fine weekends in South London bike use is at very high levels for social and domestic purposes, so conditions must be far better than Harry describes or people wouldn't cycle. Two of my South London friends who don't cycle commute have nonetheless bought bikes for personal purposes in the last couple of years and use them all the time for getting around now.

I think most of the difference must be due to population density and lack of North London space, since we did have more space for facilities in many areas, but I'd be surprised if things were quite as gloomy in the outer North London boroughs where there have more space, but I stand to be corrected.

There have been many gains and I still feel they far outweigh the negatives, and I certainly wouldn't want things back as they were.
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