Advances in battery technology

[Quicken]

In a minor update on the Eestor technology, I found an mp3 recording of a presentation given by Ian Clifford, CEO of Zenn. The prospects of the Eestor technology are covered in the second half of the presentation. You can listen to it here:

ZENN Pitches the Future: Electric Car | ZENN Cars Canada | Roth Capital Partners

Cheers,
Q

[kraeuterbutter]

here some more information for the A123 M1 FePo4-cells (we are using now for some month in rc-sports)

(specially dedicated to the big scepticer flecc )

we have the diagramms, we have the data provided by A123-Systems
but - as flecc stated - datas from a manufactor are always very pink...

every-day-flyer has desided to get real-world data for cycle-life.

the datas provided by A123Systems (>1000cycles) are measured at 10C load

(1C = dischargecurrent same as capacity of cell
2C = dischargecurrent 2 times as big as capacity of cell
10C = dischargecurrent 10 times as big as capacity of cell)

every-day-flyer wanted some own realworld - testresults, his words:

I have studied all of the vendors graphs, read hundreds of post in many different forums on several different Users Sites including ,RCU,RC Groups ,Traxxas and a few smaller ones. I have read post by car /truck,aircraft ,fixed and rotory wing and even boat RCers.
I have read post of those charging at 6A,10A and even 25A and discharge rates from about 5C (12 min) runs to 10C ( 6 min). flights .
The one thing that remains a mystery is real cycle life data at rates other than 10C max..

he has used the batts in a rc-car with
7-8C average dischargerate (= 16A - 18A average)
and up to 30C peaks (= 70A peaks)

so no labor-test


(REMEMBER: in a electro pedelec you would use the cells as a 5p-pack (5cells paralleled), so the 40A peaks in the pedelec would be only 8A PEAK for single cell and not 70A like on the test)

here is a graph of the condition of his batts (much more stressed than in a electric bike) at first discharge
and after 185cycles !


after this 185cycles (which - flecc - were FULL Deep-discharge-cycles !)
the battery has still 96% of its original capacity

oh:
at charge number 168 he even did a full-charge of the empty pack within
4min 18seconds !!!!!

look here:


even after that torture the cell showed only that ~4% capacity-loose (17cycles later) after 185cycles overall !

so.. considering this and the fact, that the cells would be stressed FAR FAR less in a electric pedelec, i think 1000cycles with over 80% capacity should be possible.

for chargers: i have shown in other thread that a charger for a pack you can use in the bike (for example 12s5p with 11Ah) does not need to be "VERY very big and heavy" as stated here somewere as well..

for the whole ongoing test visit this thread:
A123 pack life in real world uses?

to the end:
this cells are not at all comparable with anything you maybe knew before !
and for sure not with cells, which are sold currently in the e-bike-shops
(for example this cells: 50cycles Electric Bicycle - What you really need to know about Lithium ion battery packs )

the thing which must happen now:
the e-bike-sellers (not the "we build the cheapest in china" once)
have to get this cells in there hand..
build a nice casing
configure the cells in there factories for bike-use (10s4p - up to 12s5p for example)
and develope some easy handling chargers
as well as balancer/equalizer

all this parts are already available but for a easy-to-use-for-also-non-electric-enthusiast there should be a all-out-of-one-hand solution

[flecc]

Originally Posted by kraeuterbutter

(specially dedicated to the big scepticer flecc )

to the end:
this cells are not at all comparable with anything you maybe knew before !

I've seen that sentence before, with NiCad.

I've seen that sentence before, with NiMh.

I've seen that sentence before, with Li-ion.

I've seen that sentence before, with Li-Poly.

Originally Posted by kraeuterbutter

the thing which must happen now:
the e-bike-sellers (not the "we build the cheapest in china" once)
have to get this cells in there hand..
build a nice casing
configure the cells in there factories for bike-use (10s4p - up to 12s5p for example)
and develope some easy handling chargers
as well as balancer/equalizer

They should, but I bet they won't. Why? Because the customers who know nothing of these matters just want the cheapest bike.

Price rules!

[kraeuterbutter]

.. yes.. we heard that all for the other cells too..

but for that there are the realworld-testings..

i know there are NiMh which REALY sux, and there are also great once..
you also can´t say Nimh is Nimh... that also another factor !

for the "cheapest bike"

i refer here to bikes like
Opti-bike, the Flyer-series, or the swizzbee (and not all that cheap china-bikes)

when somebody is able to pay 2000Euro+ for a bike,
i think he is maybe also willing to spend 100Euro more for a battery that will maybe last 3times as long as the 100 Euro cheaper onces..
on the long run he would even safe money

meahwhile there are also people reporting about over 400cycles with the A123.. but they have not stated if full-discharge/charge-cycles and on what currents..
every-day-flyer above has documented his use of the batts more clearly...
4% for nearly 200cycles is at least promising !
(there are many batts that will be already dead after 200cycles - think you would agree with that ?!? )


(for price again:
lets say 9euro for a single cell..
12s4p => 48cells => 430Euro ===> 9,2Ah => 3,4kg cell-weight => continous power 6000Watt, peak over 10000Watt
a charger can be done for 100Euro or less
a balancer for 60 Euro
or a all-in-one charger+balancer for less than 150Euro)

i think a good NiMh in that category would also be not much cheaper

but there will come more cells of that kind...
iam using Nicd/Nimh/Lipo for aoub 20years in the hobby now, followed all new development, saw many batts fail, and this realy has potential to be very long-lifing and durable from all i have seen for myself and at others

[flecc]

I agree the makers of the expensive bikes really should put more effort into developing newer types, but they are often rather complacent. Just look at the ridiculous price BionX ask for their Li-ion battery, $900 in the USA. I can understand them not bothering if they can get away with prices like that for what they already have.

In their defence though, these expensive bikes sell in very small numbers, so that makes investment difficult to justify. Even the Giant Lafree Twist series reportedly only sold 20,000 bikes worldwide over it's six years. The numbers for BionX, Swizzbee, Optibike and the like must be really tiny.

[electric.mike]

i studied all the technical facts, comparison charts, battery vs weight vs % of capacity lost over time, ignored price and bought a black one i could have bought a red one but thought what the heck i will have a black one.
mike

[flecc]

Originally Posted by electric.mike

i studied all the technical facts, comparison charts, battery vs weight vs % of capacity lost over time, ignored price and bought a black one i could have bought a red one but thought what the heck i will have a black one.
mike

I've never tried the red ones, but also like the black ones, and the silver ones are quite good too. They've also got a nice curvy top.

[coops]

Originally Posted by electric.mike

i studied all the technical facts, comparison charts, battery vs weight vs % of capacity lost over time, ignored price and bought a black one i could have bought a red one but thought what the heck i will have a black one.
mike

Originally Posted by flecc

I've never tried the red ones, but also like the black ones, and the silver ones are quite good too. They've also got a nice curvy top.

Yes, yes, yes... that's all very well, but what I want to know is, do any of them have go-faster stripes??? ;-)

Stuart.

[flecc]

AND a "Starsky and Hutch" white stripe as well, what more could any aging poser want!!
.

[coops]

ok, I'll take 3! hehehe! Yes, very "retro"

time to hit the bar - aka "the charging post" - before I go further off-topic (though seems I missed the opening yesterday!)

Stuart.