Kalkhoff v Cytronex

[Aldby]

I have been fairly quiet for a while, but have been prompted privately by a member to give my opinion, for what it is worth, on the merits of these two makes of electric bike.
Please note these are my personal opinions and would expect, quite rightly others to disagree.

With regard to the Kalkhoff, I can only comment on the Agattu, but I believe most of what I have to say will apply to any of the current generation of Panasonic powered bikes.

The Kalkhoff, Panasonic powered bikes are excellent machines, delivering power smoothly just when you need it. The only real criticism I have is the choice of the rear sprocket. With the standard 22 tooth sprocket, I never used 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear, so I have changed to a 19 tooth on my wave frame and 18 tooth on my diamond frame. I got both sprockets from a local bike shop for £4 each. To date, I have had no problems with the 7 speed Nexus hub gears, which some seem to have suffered, or any other cycle components apart from a pedal falling off on my first ride and broken rear mudguard. Both these issues were quickly resolved by 50cycles.
With the Kalkhoffs, the power kicks in as soon as you start to pedal. I can cruise at a relaxed, leisurely pace taking in the scenery, or ride what I call quickly, up to 20 mph on the flat without too much difficulty. The range is excellent, I have ridden 30 miles using high power all the time and still had power to spare.
Both my Kalkhoffs are Agattus, which are very comfortable to ride, and I am so glad I did not pay all that extra money for a Pro-connect.

The Cytronex is quite a different animal, the Trek FX 7.3 is an excellent bike unpowered, with the exception of the very uncomfortable Bontrager saddle which I changed very quickly. As you will all know the Cytronex is several Kg lighter and much sporty in design and appearance than the Agattu. You have to pedal to 5 mph before switching on the power, then wait until you reach 11 mph before switching to high power.
The system works quite well once you get the hang of it. More rider input is required compared to the Kalkhoff as it is a less powerful system, but it does give a reasonable level of assistance. Personally, I never seem to average more than 12 or 13 mph, which I find disappointing and surprising as it gives the illusion that I am going faster. I can achieve a range of 20 miles with a fair bit of rider input.
I am not a fit cyclist like Chris Bike or Mark/Cytronex and use power all the time apart from downhill.
When it comes to comfort, speed and range, the Kalkhoff is the clear winner.
Mark/Cytronex claims charging the battery just before a ride gives an extra boost of power, I have not noticed any difference. The bike is supposedly aimed at the commuter, but how many commuters want wait 90 minutes in the morning before setting off waiting for the battery to charge. Personally, if I were commuting by bike, I would want it already charged.
I think Mark has designed the Cytronex to suit his needs, a fit cyclist who wanted a bit of assistance. His first customer was Chris, who is a cycling enthusiast and fairly fit despite his recent illness, but with little previous experience of electric bikes. Chris loves it which is great, but it is not for your average e-biker.
I think the Cytronex needs a more powerful motor, a more powerful battery with greater range, three levels of power and a battery meter.
When it comes to price, I do not think it is too unreasonable, but if you 'spec' it up to the level of an Agattu, i.e. adding suspension by getting the 7300 model, then add mudguards, a spare battery to give similar range, carrier, stand etc., you will be paying the same money as you would for an Agattu. In addition, the weight will also be very similar.
To sum up, the Kalkhoff is a great bike as it stands, in comparision, the Cytronex is a good bike with room for improvement to give it wider appeal.

J hn

[flecc]

Many thanks for this excellent summary John. It should help many to decide on the relative merits of the two bikes.

I think it's fair to say that we had two main classes of e-bike until very recently, hub-motored, often high powered and sometimes feeling a bit like motor vehicles, and those with the Panasonic unit which have a very different character, more bicycle like.

Mark with his Cytronex has introduced a clearly different third class, a true sporting bicycle with a facility for help when the going gets tough. It should appeal to cycling enthusiasts who by reason of age or any other reason feel the need for that extra help at times but who don't want to give up true sporting cycling. It's a concept I'd like to see trumpeted in CTC and cycling club circles, since that's where there's a big potential for the ideal owners, probably more so than in this forum at present.

David Henshaw of A to B magazine likes the Cytronex and as a strong cyclist which we already knew from his Presteigne podiums, finds it a very fast bike, faster than the Torq and Forza. That adds emphasis to the point you make about the suitability for strong cyclists.

[JohnInStockie]

Hi John

Thanks very much for posting that personal insight. As the only member with both bikes you are both fortunate (to have both bikes) and uniquely qualified to make this comment.

Can I ask how you tend to use these bikes? When do you say, 'Today its the Kalkhoff!' or 'Cytronex today!'?

John

[frank9755]

John,

A very interesting post, providing helpful balance for those considering buying a bike, and making it more likely they will get the right one.

I found this comment particularly interesting:

Originally Posted by Aldby

Personally, I never seem to average more than 12 or 13 mph, which I find disappointing and surprising as it gives the illusion that I am going faster.

I believe that is due to the frame geometry, in particular the wheelbase. A modern fashion is to make this short, to copy racing bikes and to make the bikes feel more 'responsive' and faster. In fact, the Trek 7.3 hasn't got a particularly short wheelbase (as it happens the dimensions are almost identical to my touring bike), but electric bikes tend to have stretched frames with longer wheelbases, so feel a bit slower at the same speed. That was my theory, and your evidence supports it nicely!

Frank

[flecc]

Longer wheelbases make for slower steering responses and greater stability on any vehicle which will give an impression of a slower speed.
.

[frank9755]

John,

Have you taken the Cytronex on any trips to the mountains? I think it would come into its own in hilly country, and you might not be getting the best of it in your flattish part of the world.

Before I did my Tongxin conversion, I spent some time thinking about whether to go for a 190 rpm motor or a 260. The 190 would have produced a similar bike to the Cytronex. It would help on the hills but not do much on the flat, whereas the 260 wouldn't have enough torque for a serious hill but would drive the bike to higher speeds on the flat.

I decided that, as I live in a flat area, and I was mainly planning to use the bike for commuting, the 260 was more use for me. If I had wanted the bike more for weekends away in hilly country, I'd have gone for the 190.

Remember A to B's comment on the Brompton Nano (with a Tongxin motor similarly low geared for wheel size) - that they got higher average speeds in hilly country?

Frank

[Matt]

An excellent review Aldby. Does this mean there may potentially be a used cytronex up for sale soon

[Aldby]

Too many issues to comment on individually, but I will attempt to respond to most of them.

To start with and as Flecc has said previously, the Cytronex represents a new and third category of e-bike, a sporting bike with assistance, call it what you will.
Currently it stands alone in this class, apart from the impressive Tongxin conversion by Frank9755, which looked really good until it suffered reliability problems.

With regard to which bike I choose to ride, it comes down to if I am riding with my wife on her Agattu or taking to some of the rougher cycle routes or forestry tracks, maybe do a bit of shopping or just cruising. Then it would be the Agattu. If I am in a hurry to get somewhere, travelling light within a 10 mile radius, despite me not achieving a very high average speed, or I'm on my own, then I would probably use the Cytronex. I like the lightweight, manouverability and responsive handling of the Cytronex.
As yet, I have not tried it out on seriously hilly terrain, many of you might be surprised that there are a few quite steep hills in and around Milton Keynes. Next time I go up to the Lake District, which I visit every few months, I will take both bikes with me. I have not cycled there since I was a child, so that should prove a good test of man and machine.
Finally, I have no intention of parting with any of my bikes in the near future..........unless something irresistible comes along!

J hn

[HarryB]

I am very surprised you say the Tongxin motor is not powerful compared to the Agattu. Certainly when I modified my Torq with the 190rpm version, it was very fast and I rarely wanted for more power (to be fair I don't live in a very hilly area). Certainly it made the Agattu seem very slow in comparison. Perhaps it is something to do with the Cytronex installation but I cannot see how, as they are not limiting power in any way.

The main difference between my version and the Cytronex is that they use the 175rpm version (of course my version had a throttle and weighed about 25kg). I would expect the Cytronex to be a better hill climber. The main difference in use (for me) is that the Tongxin motored ebike responds much better to your input. For example: you are riding along at 15-16mph and perhaps overtaking a bus when it pulls out. With the Tongxin motor a bit of your input would see you at 22-23mph with relative ease. The same cannot be said of the Agattu - no way are my legs powerful enough for this sort of speed at short notice. In this way the Agattu is similar to a restricted Torq 1 - it just needs more effort. In terms of average speeds - the 190rpm version would average about 16 mph, provided there was no traffic. I would cruise at about 18 mph, just above the cut out speed.

I think I will have to take a trip to Winchester over the summer to get an idea of what the Cytronex is really like. But perhaps my Agattu is faulty!

[JohnInStockie]

Originally Posted by Aldby

..... the Cytronex represents a new and third category of e-bike, a sporting bike with assistance........Currently it stands alone in this class.....unless something irresistible comes along!

From the model I saw at 50C, it wont be alone for long. They had the 2009 'sports' version of the Pro-Connect as a demo bike which I was lucky enough to try out. It looks and feels very like the Cytronex (except obviously with a Panasonic Motor) with a very light thin frame, Road tyres, derrailiuer gears, and it probably weighed about 14-15Kg. It was very fast, I'd start saving now then John if I were you