The dangers from these batteries catching fire have already been mentioned on this Forum . A report in today`s Motorcycle News mentions the event at Silverstone on June 19th when MUNCH Racing`s TTE Electric Racing Motorcycle caught fire and 16 fire extinguishers failed to contain the blaze . They ran out of extinguishers , batteries were popping everywhere and crowds had to be cleared because of poisonous fumes being given off .
Lithium-ion battery dangers
- Thread starter RoadieRoger
- Start date
This also illustrates the uselessness of modern fire extinguishers. Dry powder, CO2 and chemical types can extinguish flames, but don't cool down the fire source sufficiently which is essential if it's to be controlled.
The old-fashioned 2 gallon soda-acid and foam extinguishers did cool and were much more effective, but fears that people might use them on mains electrics largely did away with them.
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The old-fashioned 2 gallon soda-acid and foam extinguishers did cool and were much more effective, but fears that people might use them on mains electrics largely did away with them.
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Exactly right Scotty, immersing in water is the best thing for a combusting lithium battery. This allows short circuiting to continue at low temperatures in safe conditions until all the chemical reaction is exhausted.
I've done this twice with experimental packs and can vouch for it's effectiveness.
I've done this twice with experimental packs and can vouch for it's effectiveness.
Someone mentioned recently that Ping batteries (LiFePO4) are prone to catching fire.
I was under the impression that LiFePO4 was very safe
I have read a couple of posts on Endless Sphere that their packs ballooned, but did not burst into flames.
Are the scaremongers out again, or are these pretty safe?
I was under the impression that LiFePO4 was very safe
I have read a couple of posts on Endless Sphere that their packs ballooned, but did not burst into flames.
Are the scaremongers out again, or are these pretty safe?
I'd say your last line has a grain of truth in it. Not all the advice given on here (even in good faith) is on the button, and you have to take a broad consensus to make the most use of it.Someone mentioned recently that Ping batteries (LiFePO4) are prone to catching fire.
I was under the impression that LiFePO4 was very safe
I have read a couple of posts on Endless Sphere that their packs ballooned, but did not burst into flames.
Are the scaremongers out again, or are these pretty safe?
Any battery is potentially dangerous because of the amount of stored energy. A car battery will let loose up to 1,000 amps into a solid short circuit - not for long, admittedly, but long enough to be spectacular. I'd suggest that most car fires are caused by an electrical short rather than spilt fuel but it's only my opinion!
Some lithium batteries (all sizes and technologies) have given problems at some time or other. The modern ones are safe enough when used correctly, though, otherwise there would be a significant amount of bad news considering the many thousands (perhaps millions) in use. I'd be a little wary of buying a large unpackaged lithium battery with the idea of putting it into a case - although there might be nothing wrong with the battery itself uninformed DIY battery packs could easily be dangerous.
Rog.
More than a suggestion Rog, the great majority of car fires are caused by short circuits, fuel only rarely involved initially. Fortunately they are much less common now than they were when I was in the trade, but still just as nasty when they occur and almost always destroying the car.
As you say, today's e-bike lithium batteries are very safe, the fires with the old cobalt cathode ones in earlier years being a wake-up call for the industry. Today's compound cathodes are much safer and most fire events I've heard of more recently have been with home made packs, sometimes with no BMS management.
As you say, today's e-bike lithium batteries are very safe, the fires with the old cobalt cathode ones in earlier years being a wake-up call for the industry. Today's compound cathodes are much safer and most fire events I've heard of more recently have been with home made packs, sometimes with no BMS management.
It wasn't reported but the marshalls in that Munch fire made things considerably worse by using water fire extinguishers when they ran out of CO2/Foam. It's really unfortunate because I think this will have a lot of side effects in the development of electric M/C racing.
Flecc, the lack of on board BMS and sensitivity to over-under voltage is what makes me very uncomfortable about using RC style batteries. It's a shame because their light weight, small size, high C rating and low price ought to make them ideal candidates for e-bikes. I'd love to see somebody do a kit to make them as user friendly as the typical E-Bike 36v-10Ahr Lion battery.
Flecc, the lack of on board BMS and sensitivity to over-under voltage is what makes me very uncomfortable about using RC style batteries. It's a shame because their light weight, small size, high C rating and low price ought to make them ideal candidates for e-bikes. I'd love to see somebody do a kit to make them as user friendly as the typical E-Bike 36v-10Ahr Lion battery.
JB, although not a kit BMS Battery offer these management boards for the chemistry of your choice:
Smart BMS 5~13 Cells in Series - BMSBATTERY
Customisable as well for LVC/HVC
Been meaning to get a set for my DIY packs....
Smart BMS 5~13 Cells in Series - BMSBATTERY
Customisable as well for LVC/HVC
Been meaning to get a set for my DIY packs....
Bumping this thread because I'm near to buying a battery to go with the two kits I've bought, and yet feel deeply worried about storing a L-ion battery in the flat while I'm sleeping or out. The tales I read of these things bursting into flame if they're ever dropped, or mis-constructed, etc, make me think I could easily burn my rented flat down despite taking all intuitive precautions.
Stories like this and this do not reassure.
This guy suggests putting the battery on top of a barbecue or in an oven (!) (see pic).
I've wondered about purchasing one of these housefire-proof safes, big enough to fit the battery inside for storage, yet it will cost as much as the battery - and of course could just turn into a massive shrapnel bomb (?).
Does anyone have any ideas, please, as to how I can keep a battery indoors safely? I don't have a workshop, shed, or similar. The barbecue option seems the best - but I figure if batteries were burning, they might "pop" burning matter out of the barbecue onto the carpet in my flat; or else flames might reach the ceiling which could catch fire.
I've heard it's sensible to store batteries half-charged, but given there's no charge-meter it seems very difficult to measure.
Sorry to sound grim about ebikes but as they (hopefully) get more popular, this is an issue customers and the industry will have to tackle head-on.
Stories like this and this do not reassure.
This guy suggests putting the battery on top of a barbecue or in an oven (!) (see pic).
I've wondered about purchasing one of these housefire-proof safes, big enough to fit the battery inside for storage, yet it will cost as much as the battery - and of course could just turn into a massive shrapnel bomb (?).
Does anyone have any ideas, please, as to how I can keep a battery indoors safely? I don't have a workshop, shed, or similar. The barbecue option seems the best - but I figure if batteries were burning, they might "pop" burning matter out of the barbecue onto the carpet in my flat; or else flames might reach the ceiling which could catch fire.
I've heard it's sensible to store batteries half-charged, but given there's no charge-meter it seems very difficult to measure.
Sorry to sound grim about ebikes but as they (hopefully) get more popular, this is an issue customers and the industry will have to tackle head-on.
Unless you are uber paranoid, standard e-bike batteries are as safe as any high density energy source, as long as it is turned off or better unplugged its pretty damn safe, I leave mine in the house with the battery sitting on a shelf.
I only charge whilst in the room still.
Hobby lipos ie. Hobby King, are not as touchy these days BUT, only use a proper lipo balance charger, make sure not to over discharge via low voltage cut off or lipo alarms, only charge whilst present and as I am paranoid mine used to be stored in a lipo charge bag and are now stored in an old elecrtric fry pan (has insulated legs and heavy glass lid) next to the trike in the house.
I only charge whilst in the room still.
Hobby lipos ie. Hobby King, are not as touchy these days BUT, only use a proper lipo balance charger, make sure not to over discharge via low voltage cut off or lipo alarms, only charge whilst present and as I am paranoid mine used to be stored in a lipo charge bag and are now stored in an old elecrtric fry pan (has insulated legs and heavy glass lid) next to the trike in the house.
stop worrying. All e-bike batteries are nowadays made with Lithium ion cells, their fire risk is minimal.
The risk is highest when the cells are overcharged, they then release oxygen and swell.
These batteries also have self extinguishing PVC packaging and incombustible shell, should a cell short-circuits, these things help containing the fire inside the casing, reducing the fire hazard to practically nil.
The risk is highest when the cells are overcharged, they then release oxygen and swell.
These batteries also have self extinguishing PVC packaging and incombustible shell, should a cell short-circuits, these things help containing the fire inside the casing, reducing the fire hazard to practically nil.
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Agreed with both of the above, the only risk worth considering with today's battery packs is during charging, and even then an accidental event is safely contained.
To be absolutely safe, only charge when in and awake. I've always kept my lithium packs indoors, up to three of them with over 1200 W/h contained at any one time.
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To be absolutely safe, only charge when in and awake. I've always kept my lithium packs indoors, up to three of them with over 1200 W/h contained at any one time.
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D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
I've got about 20 batteries in my house. You can find stories about mobile phones, laptops and tablets bursting into flames too, but do you put them in a safe overnight?
In the last 5 years on this forum, I think we had one report of a battery catching fire, which was a home-made one bought from Ebay that had no BMS. All Chinese and European ebike batteries have BMSs, so nothing to worry about.
In the last 5 years on this forum, I think we had one report of a battery catching fire, which was a home-made one bought from Ebay that had no BMS. All Chinese and European ebike batteries have BMSs, so nothing to worry about.
OK I feel a bit better, thanks. I'm grateful for all comments, including the point about fire retardant properties, and for the advice about attending while charging etc. I might just buy a barbecue for £10 to store the thing in indoors while I'm not in and while charging.
I don't think it's actually accurate to say a concern is paranoid though. I think until you know something is safe, a concern for safety isn't paranoid. Drivers imagine they "know" it's safe to drive round blind country bends at 60mph because they've never had an accident before. They shut out any evidence which could trouble them, and we know what an awful attitude that is. It may be that my buying an ebike battery bears no kind of comparison to this sort of blindfolded attitude to risk at all, but if I've got worries then it's my responsibility to satisfy them, rather than just take the "meh" approach. Mainly because I like my landlord whose property adjoins mine.
I was partly worried to read on this very forum that if one dropped a lipo pack, one might have 20 seconds before it would be pouring vigorous flames, and so worried that if encased lion battery packs could have even a small fraction of the same volatility, then there could be issues given I'm averagely clumsy.
What happens if you drop a L-ion battery pack which is encased in plastic etc?
As for gadgets with lithium batteries which don't burn, I know that we all have lots of them, but I'm not sure that's comparing like with like (and I mention this just to share my thought process - it's a sort of pedantry so I apologise if it seems catty).
The original designs for gadgets likely had millions if not billions spent on researching and testing design safety and manufacturing-process design, whereas retail ebike batteries I suspect are often assembled in a small workshop and in small numbers where people buy in batteries (with provenance and quality sometimes difficult to guarantee), and BMSs which haven't had the kinds of investment in their original design and manufacture as goods designed for Western markets with genuine CE/other similar certification; and then those workshops, often one or two people, may fit them together themselves under who knows what conditions. I've read about people buying from some stores where cells regularly just fail to charge, so I see no necessary reason why failure would be confined to non-safety-related issues.
That's setting aside the issue of much greater discharges/loads/energy storage etc than ordinary consumer electronics.
And one more thing: Dreamliner. Dreamliner seems to relate to charging issues - something people confirm here is a risky point in the usage cycle. Yet how can I be sure that any dangerous occurrence during charging, will actually make itself apparent while I'm charging, and not later when I'm not?
I don't think it's actually accurate to say a concern is paranoid though. I think until you know something is safe, a concern for safety isn't paranoid. Drivers imagine they "know" it's safe to drive round blind country bends at 60mph because they've never had an accident before. They shut out any evidence which could trouble them, and we know what an awful attitude that is. It may be that my buying an ebike battery bears no kind of comparison to this sort of blindfolded attitude to risk at all, but if I've got worries then it's my responsibility to satisfy them, rather than just take the "meh" approach. Mainly because I like my landlord whose property adjoins mine.
I was partly worried to read on this very forum that if one dropped a lipo pack, one might have 20 seconds before it would be pouring vigorous flames, and so worried that if encased lion battery packs could have even a small fraction of the same volatility, then there could be issues given I'm averagely clumsy.
What happens if you drop a L-ion battery pack which is encased in plastic etc?
As for gadgets with lithium batteries which don't burn, I know that we all have lots of them, but I'm not sure that's comparing like with like (and I mention this just to share my thought process - it's a sort of pedantry so I apologise if it seems catty).
The original designs for gadgets likely had millions if not billions spent on researching and testing design safety and manufacturing-process design, whereas retail ebike batteries I suspect are often assembled in a small workshop and in small numbers where people buy in batteries (with provenance and quality sometimes difficult to guarantee), and BMSs which haven't had the kinds of investment in their original design and manufacture as goods designed for Western markets with genuine CE/other similar certification; and then those workshops, often one or two people, may fit them together themselves under who knows what conditions. I've read about people buying from some stores where cells regularly just fail to charge, so I see no necessary reason why failure would be confined to non-safety-related issues.
That's setting aside the issue of much greater discharges/loads/energy storage etc than ordinary consumer electronics.
And one more thing: Dreamliner. Dreamliner seems to relate to charging issues - something people confirm here is a risky point in the usage cycle. Yet how can I be sure that any dangerous occurrence during charging, will actually make itself apparent while I'm charging, and not later when I'm not?
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In my experience nothing happens when a pack is dropped and broken. Have a look at my website on the link below to see two cruelly mistreated batteries which went on the fulfil their normal lives after the cases were taped up to mend the breaks:
Battery Case Repairs
As for the latter quoted point, the tiny risk of danger with today's batteries is only during the current input, the heat generated being the trigger in certain remotely possible circumstances. The moment the charge is stopped cooling commences and the danger no longer exists.
All the risk talk with lithium batteries dates from when they had cobalt cathodes involving the possibility of sharp edged lithium crystals forming if manufacturing standards were too low. Those crystals could pierce the internal insulations and cause short circuits generating heat and did do so on a few occasions.
No very large capacity lithium battery such as we use on e-bikes has been made that way for years. They all have various forms of compound cathodes in which cobalt plays little part, and also benefit from years more manufacturing experience. An additional benefit results from them using multiple small cells which are intrinsically much safer than the very large individual cells that were common years ago. Somewhat smaller batteries like those in laptops have continued to use only cobalt based cathodes for maximum efficiency/capacity reasons and have suffered more recent fires, but even they have now greatly improved following the huge costs borne by manufacturers in free replacement of countless thousands of batteries worldwide.
As for the Dreamliner, weight saving in aircraft design has always produced high risks as the multiple DH Comet crashes of years ago showed and I've little doubt that is where Boeing made their mistake. They are a bit stuck now having not made large enough space for anything bigger, a problem that will haunt them until the next redesign.
I wouldn't say you are being paranoid for sensibly being aware of risk, but in this case your fears have almost no justification. You will no doubt have some equal or even greater dangers in your home, since large numbers of home appliances catch fire every year.
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To back up flecc's quite correct comments regarding risks in your home. Between March 2012 and April 2013 a little over half of all domestic accidental fires were caused by cooking appliances. So you are probrably at greater risk from your cooker, toaster, microwave and kettle
Whilst sensible precautions are a must I think one can draw a comparasion with a fear of flying. Yes, a plane might crash but you are far far more likely to get knocked down by the Clapham omnibus.
I love a bit of data - fire data is here
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/313590/Fire_statistics_Great_Britain_2012-13__final_version_.pdf
Whilst sensible precautions are a must I think one can draw a comparasion with a fear of flying. Yes, a plane might crash but you are far far more likely to get knocked down by the Clapham omnibus.
I love a bit of data - fire data is here
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/313590/Fire_statistics_Great_Britain_2012-13__final_version_.pdf
Don't want to be pedantic Flecc but I don't think weight saving was the issue with the Comet. It was a lack of understanding in the aircraft industry worldwide about metal fatigue in alloy. The Comet's windows were large and rectangular, and the cycles of cabin pressurisation and depressurisation caused fatigue cracks on the sharp window edges which spread and led to catastrophic failure.
The Comet flew higher than piston engined aeroplanes and so was the first to go through cycles of high pressurisation like that.
After they found out the cause and came to understand metal fatigue cabin windows of all aircraft were designed to be smaller and rounded at the corners.
And of the remaining almost half, the fires in a very large number of cases were caused by washing machines and tumble dryers, the latter being very high risk items since misuse can cause the danger.
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