Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

And now the Maybot ha gone down the same road as Boris
"
UK to ask EU leaders to expel Russian spies from own countries
Theresa May to make request at summit, with aim of closing down Kremlin networks in Europe
Britain will encourage European leaders to expel Russian intelligence agents from their own countries in a bid to dismantle the Kremlin’s networks across Europe, warning that the west faces a long-term threat from Vladimir Putin.

Theresa May will ask European leaders to examine Britain’s response to the use of a nerve agent against a Russian double agent and his daughter in Salisbury and step up their own measures when they meet in Brussels on Thursday.

The prime minister will brief leaders over dinner at the European council summit, where she will stress a pattern of aggressive Russian behaviour. “The challenge of Russia is one that will endure for years to come,” she will say. “As a European democracy, the UK will stand shoulder to shoulder with the EU and Nato to face these threats together. United, we will succeed.”

And what exactly will we gain from this? drive them underground?
Classic Strategic Mistake!

Time for an election and to rid ourselves of the lunatic Tory Party, they are a far bigger long term threat to the nation than any foreign power, and already she is crawling to the EU to back her up?

 

[oldgroaner]

That was the reason behind Theresa May stating in the Commons that they did not intend any escalation of retaliation.

I suspect they now know that Russia wasn't responsible this time, but having boxed themselves into a corner they aren't able to back down.
.

And yet the idiot woman is trying to spread anti Russian actions across the EU now?
Truly the Government has totally lost the plot.

 

[shemozzle999]

Why is the fool still turning up to make a nuisance of himself? there is no way he is going to be anything other than an embarassment to this country is there?

He considers the committee on CFP powerless so highlights its failings by other means

http://www.ukip-ashford.co.uk/images/Stolen Seas.pdf

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Independent
"
Boris Johnson is keen we don't jump to conclusions about Russia – but only where Tory money is concerned
While others make wild assumptions about who did the dirty work in Salisbury, and about the Tory tradition of turning a blind nose to the dirty money which funds them, this diplomatic goliath has an unswerving commitment to gathering evidence before forming a judgment

On the Marr show he admitted the Tennis Match and the money and defended what he would have screamed "Traitor!" if Corbyn had done it.

"You can't blame individual Russians without evidence" is the theme of his reply.
But even with that Proviso why is accepting money from Russians OK for the Conservatives but not Labour?

 

[oldgroaner]

He considers the committee on CFP powerless so highlights its failings by other means

http://www.ukip-ashford.co.uk/images/Stolen Seas.pdf

He only succeeded in making himself a laughing stock, and it was his job on the committee not just to laugh and take the money, but stand up for our best interests.
The man was useless as an MEP, worse he damaged our interests badly.

 

[oldtom]

“As a European democracy, the UK will stand shoulder to shoulder with the EU and Nato to face these threats together. United, we will succeed.”

So now May does want to be part of a big gang. She has more front than Blackpool!

After milking the Salisbury incident, an incident in which nobody has died, for all she can get out of it, in a vain attempt to both draw the public's attention away from her failure over 'Brexit' and to appear Thatcher-like as a kind of new 'Iron Lady', she calls on people she and her party have displayed utter contempt for to come to her aid if the Russians become heavy-handed.

OG, you are absolutely right; the biggest threat this country faces comes, not from Russia but from Tory HQ.

Time for an election and to rid ourselves of the lunatic Tory Party, they are a far bigger long term threat to the nation than any foreign power, and already she is crawling to the EU to back her up?

It is hugely embarrassing to watch the machinations of a failed government being played out before a worldwide audience - it is time they were gone!

Tom

 

[oldtom]

On the Marr show he admitted the Tennis Match and the money and defended what he would have screamed "Traitor!" if Corbyn had done it.

"You can't blame individual Russians without evidence" is the theme of his reply.
But even with that Proviso why is accepting money from Russians OK for the Conservatives but not Labour?

That is the height of hypocrisy but we shouldn't be surprised; the whole tory party is manifestly a moral vacuum and it always has been - leopards don't change their spots!

Tom

 

[flecc]

And yet the idiot woman is trying to spread anti Russian actions across the EU now?

Passing the buck so Russia can't only get angry at British actions.

She's wasting her time though. They won't act, Germany for one is unwilling to help in actions against Russia, as they showed when arguing against the sanctions. Their preference is for diplomacy.
.

 

[Woosh]

He considers the committee on CFP powerless so highlights its failings by other means

http://www.ukip-ashford.co.uk/images/Stolen Seas.pdf

It seems to me that the CFP is being used as a scapegoat. If we accept the single market for all economic activity inside the EU, then a CFP makes total sense. The correction is not to allow UK registered vessels and catch that use UK permits to land fish outside the UK.

I think that after brexit, the UK will have to continue to participate in the CFP because we have close neighbours, Netherlands, Belgium, France, ROI.

 

[Zlatan]

For info..from Guardian. The nerve agent doesn't always kill immediately.

It’s got me’ – lonely death of Soviet scientist poisoned by novichok



Andrei Zheleznyakov was working on chemical weapons in the 1980s when a hood malfunction exposed him to nerve agent.
Before former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia collapsed on a park bench in Salisbury on 4 March, the only other person confirmed to suffer the effects of novichok was a young Soviet chemical weapons scientist.

“Circles appeared before my eyes: red and orange. A ringing in my ears, I caught my breath. And a sense of fear: like something was about to happen,” Andrei Zheleznyakov told the now-defunct newspaper Novoye Vremya, describing the 1987 weapons lab incident that exposed him to a nerve agent that would eventually kill him. “I sat down on a chair and told the guys: ‘It’s got me.’”

By 1992, when the interview was published, the nerve agent had gutted Zheleznyakov’s central nervous system. Less than a year later he was dead, after battling cirrhosis, toxic hepatitis, nerve damage and epilepsy.

But by deciding to go public, he joined those blowing the whistle on a chemical weapons programme that was still charging forward years after George Bush and Mikhail Gorbachev signed the 1990 US–Soviet Chemical Weapons Accord in which each pledged to halt the production of chemical weapons.

 

[flecc]

Before former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia collapsed on a park bench in Salisbury on 4 March, the only other person confirmed to suffer the effects of novichok was a young Soviet chemical weapons scientist.

This bit isn't true. Earlier in the thread someone posted about a poisoning using some Novichok stolen from Russia, including the names of those involved.

Given the years of shambles when the USSR collapsed, I doubt anyone knows what can have got out at that time, whether material or information on it.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

For info..from Guardian. The nerve agent doesn't always kill immediately.

It’s got me’ – lonely death of Soviet scientist poisoned by novichok



Andrei Zheleznyakov was working on chemical weapons in the 1980s when a hood malfunction exposed him to nerve agent.
Before former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia collapsed on a park bench in Salisbury on 4 March, the only other person confirmed to suffer the effects of novichok was a young Soviet chemical weapons scientist.

“Circles appeared before my eyes: red and orange. A ringing in my ears, I caught my breath. And a sense of fear: like something was about to happen,” Andrei Zheleznyakov told the now-defunct newspaper Novoye Vremya, describing the 1987 weapons lab incident that exposed him to a nerve agent that would eventually kill him. “I sat down on a chair and told the guys: ‘It’s got me.’”

By 1992, when the interview was published, the nerve agent had gutted Zheleznyakov’s central nervous system. Less than a year later he was dead, after battling cirrhosis, toxic hepatitis, nerve damage and epilepsy.

But by deciding to go public, he joined those blowing the whistle on a chemical weapons programme that was still charging forward years after George Bush and Mikhail Gorbachev signed the 1990 US–Soviet Chemical Weapons Accord in which each pledged to halt the production of chemical weapons.

OK, so now tell me this.What use in War is such a weapon?
It would be far cheaper, just as effective and cruel if you Bombed the enemy with Asbestos Dust.
It killed many of my friends at work, and one is dying of it right now.
Sorry, but I really can't see what use such as weapon has if it is so slow acting, it's no better than some of the first world war Mustard Gas
"Eyes become red, sore and runny — extreme pain and blindness follows. Other symptoms include nasal congestion, sinus pain, hoarseness, coughing and in extreme cases respiratory failure. Sustained exposure can produce nausea, diarrhea and abdominal pain. Fatalities typically occur within a few days, but it can take weeks, even months for survivors to fully recover. And some never do; permanent blindness, scars, long-term respiratory damage and heightened risk of cancer are just some of the long-term effects of mustard gas poisoning. To this day, there is no antidote for mustard gas. The CDC reports that treatment options are limited to “supportive care.”

The time spent on developing the weapon you describe was a waste of time,money and effort.

 

[flecc]

The time spent on developing the weapon you describe was a waste of time,money and effort.

We've got booze and fags to do that slow killing, plus a bit of help from McDonalds.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

We've got booze and fags to do that slow killing, plus a bit of help from McDonalds.
.

Now you tell me! I've.just ordered a [emoji488]

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldtom]

Just read this and I found it so typical, I had to laugh:

business-43489462

Are we to believe that it is beyond the wit of this apology for a government to advertise and consider bids both from companies in the UK and those in countries beyond the EU, even our own commonwealth?

Every civilised country has passports and I'll speculate and say that most of them are made in their own country - I don't know that for a fact but regardless of that, having to do business with an EU state after we have spent the last two years condemning them for a variety of reasons while asserting to everyone that we are going to strengthen and protect our borders is risible.

Passports feature highly in border control and in my view should be created and produced in the home nation state where the government can exercise control over beginning to end production and ensure security of the process.

I'd like to understand how this can be said to be saving the exchequer money when I don't know who was asked in the UK about producing passports.

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

OK, so now tell me this.What use in War is such a weapon?
It would be far cheaper, just as effective and cruel if you Bombed the enemy with Asbestos Dust.
It killed many of my friends at work, and one is dying of it right now.
Sorry, but I really can't see what use such as weapon has if it is so slow acting, it's no better than some of the first world war Mustard Gas
"Eyes become red, sore and runny — extreme pain and blindness follows. Other symptoms include nasal congestion, sinus pain, hoarseness, coughing and in extreme cases respiratory failure. Sustained exposure can produce nausea, diarrhea and abdominal pain. Fatalities typically occur within a few days, but it can take weeks, even months for survivors to fully recover. And some never do; permanent blindness, scars, long-term respiratory damage and heightened risk of cancer are just some of the long-term effects of mustard gas poisoning. To this day, there is no antidote for mustard gas. The CDC reports that treatment options are limited to “supportive care.”

The time spent on developing the weapon you describe was a waste of time,money and effort.

I suppose OG it depends on level of exposure, and very often its more advantageous to not kill , how many are occupied caring for ill.

I have seen no information about levels required to do varying degrees of damage for Novichok...perhaps nobody knows but I,d bet somebody does. The polonium used in Litvinenco case has more information. A piece the size of a grain of salt is sufficient to kill 5 people, given time. The same size in an individual will kill within days. Nobody actually knows the amounts administered in any of these cases but its summised that grain of salt size was put in Litvinenco's tea pot...
I cant see us ever knowing full truth about any of this...
Boils down to who do you believe the most ? Putin or May...devil and deep blue sea springs to mind but I tend to believe May more than Putin..( neither administration are actually trust worthy)
I believe believing Putin is the more dangerous...by a country mile...
May and her G4 hubby might want to make us all work for less money and want to keep social division. What does Putin want...after Crimean.. ???

 

[flecc]

What does Putin want...after Crimean.. ???

in terms of taking possession of land, nothing. The only reason for Crimea was the access and security of their Southern Fleet. Those were obviously seriously threatened by the Ukraine wanting to join the EU and probably NATO.

Again this shows the anti-Russian bias, since no-one in the West ever considered that genuine Russian problem and their valid need to do something about it.

Otherwise all Putin wants is for the countries along the western flank to drop the US inspired NATO militaristic position and act as friendly neighbours. He's shown this with Georgia. He could have gone the whole way across that country and kept total possession. Instead he secured the Georgian President's agreement for no more EU and NATO approaches and then withdrew the Russian troops from all but the small Russian enclave at one edge.

Remember, there wasn't a hint of the Ukraine and Crimea problems while the Ukraine had a government and president friendly towards Russia. The trouble only began with the Orange revolution coup and moves to join the EU and NATO.
.

 

[Woosh]

I cant see us ever knowing full truth about any of this...

you are not alone.
The problem is this kind of killings are exploited by politicians to further their own agenda, usually to spread, justify and intensify xenophobia.

 

[Woosh]

From the Luxembourg prime minister:

"As an EU member, Britain was forever asking for opt-outs.
Now they are out, they want a load of opt-ins."

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Independent
"
Brexit: Leaders of eight European countries call for new referendum on UK's withdrawal from EU
EU prime ministers issue a joint statement saying they 'regret' Brexit vote
Leaders of several European countries have shown their support for offering the British public a say on the final Brexit deal, the Liberal Democrats claim.

As Theresa May arrived in Brussels for a crucial EU summit, Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable held meetings on the margins with a group of European liberal prime ministers, who "verbally agreed" to back calls to allow a fresh referendum on the final deal.

However confusion abounded when the group representing liberal EU parties put out a statement refuting his claims.

So it was all FAKE NEWS