Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Another major problem with referendums is how changes in demography and of minds can be incorporated.

I have heard a number of people saying how a second referendum on brexit would be undemocratic (as we all have) but none can explain how one referendum binds the government forever into the future even if demonstrably against the "will of the people" now, whereas a second is fundamentally undemocratic.

I believe the understanding of the leave supporters is that somehow they have Property Rights over Brexit,made inviolable by the marginal victory in the The Referendum.
Their greatest fear is of a second vote robbing them as what they perceive is some sort of "Salvation" from an imagined "overlordship" on the part of the EU

 

[oyster]

I wonder who is paying for this bankrupt to appear?

I'd be willing to pay for her to disappear...

 

[oyster]

I believe the understanding of the leave supporters is that somehow they have Property Rights over Brexit,made inviolable by the marginal victory in the The Referendum.
Their greatest fear is of a second vote robbing them as what they perceive is some sort of "Salvation" from an imagined "overlordship" on the part of the EU

I hope they don't try to assert Intellectual Property rights over brexit. It is intellectually bankrupt so there can't be any IP rights. As for moral rights...

 

[oyster]

Liked the comments:

Range Rover Velar: ‘It feels like the brand’s flagship model’
Designed to fill the space between the Evoque and and the larger Range Rover Sport, the exceptional Velar comfortably exceeds its brief



John Webb
1h ago
I will use my Brexit Bonus to purchase one!

• 
  
  LimeNine John Webb
  53m ago

The ‘Brexit Bonus’ as you refer to has now been rebranded as the ‘Tory-Brexit Velar’ tories have a long history of hiding things, your bonus being one of them.

 

[Woosh]

That's what happens when a promise is made rather than a contradictory manifesto.
The problem with referendums is this. People believe that like rubbing a magic lamp, the expressed promise is guaranteed to come true, regardless of how difficult or even impossible it turns out to be.

I believe in responsible and efficient government that is underpinned by one person one vote but I think democracy as a yardstick is a bit overrated.
If there is a second referendum right now, voters are still very much split in the middle. The fantasy of sovereignty is not going to be confronted by real, practical difficulties.

 

[oldgroaner]

I believe in responsible and efficient government that is underpinned by one person one vote but I think democracy as a yardstick is a bit overrated.
If there is a second referendum right now, voters are still very much split in the middle. The fantasy of sovereignty is not going to be confronted by real, practical difficulties.

One man one vote eh?

Grease Smug agrees with that as expressed here

"“Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man, he had the Vote.” (Mort, Terry Pratchett)

 

[flecc]

I have heard a number of people saying how a second referendum on brexit would be undemocratic

But it would be a third referendum of course which makes it democratic:

1975 Referendum = Democratic

2016 Referendum = Undemocratic

New Referendum = Democratic

Balance being an essential of democracy.
.

 

[oyster]

But it would be a third referendum of course which makes it democratic:

1975 Referendum = Democratic

2016 Referendum = Undemocratic

New Referendum = Democratic

Balance being an essential of democracy.
.

There have been several GEs since 1975, including since the European cooperation became the EU. The antis had their opportunity to vote against at each and every one of them. Maybe they did? But they did not demonstrate that their viewpoint had the backing of the electorate.

I agree that the 2016 referendum was a travesty - and the remain camp did not exactly campaign effectively. Most of what I saw was Cameron whining on unconvincingly.

 

[daveboy]

Lets have a Referendum every 3 years, We can call it a
NEVERENDUM

 

[Woosh]

Lets have a Referendum every 3 years, We can call it a
NEVERENDUM

be careful what you wish for. It seems we are heading that way.

 

[oldgroaner]

In the same way we keep having general elections?
We can call it democracy, after all what's the difference?
Care to explain what that is?
And if brexit is a good idea, it will win, won't it?
So you really can't object, can you?
We can call it
NEVERENDUMWILLOFTHE PEOPLE
Isn't that what you wanted?
And if not, why not?

Lets have a Referendum every 3 years, We can call it a
NEVERENDUM

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[Woosh]

And if brexit is a good idea, it will win, won't it?

it may. That's a real problem for remainers.
TM may call one in October/November to avoid a leadership contest.
Until voters experience real brexit, the next referendum can be manipulated by rich people with vested interest like the last one.

 

[daveboy]

I would be happy with another Referendum on one condition..
The turnout needs to be the same as the last one.
I don't want the result to go either way because of the
"what's the point of voting" attitude.

 

[flecc]

I would be happy with another Referendum on one condition..
The turnout needs to be the same as the last one.
I don't want the result to go either way because of the
"what's the point of voting" attitude.

Or turnout better than last time.

In such an important issue there should have been conditions attached to the 2016 referendum. The turnout at least 70% of the electorate and at least 60% of those voting for a change for it to be acted on.

To make the change we are making on such a tiny margin is foolish, leading to a divided country which will not be at peace between both sides for decades.

However I was opposed to having a referendum in the first place and am still opposed to them. This is a parliamentary democracy and such matters are a duty of parliament alone.
.

 

[oyster]

Or turnout better than last time.

In such an important issue there should have been conditions attached to the 2016 referendum. The turnout at least 70% of the electorate and at least 60% of those voting for a change for it to be acted on.

To make the change we are making on such a tiny margin is foolish, leading to a divided country which will not be at peace between both sides for decades.

However I was opposed to having a referendum in the first place and am still opposed to them. This is a parliamentary democracy and such matters are a duty of parliament alone.
.

Emotionally, I agree. Trouble could be if (say) the brexit people thought they wouldn't win on the day and implored their supporters not to vote. If there is a clear turnout rule, that could be a way of ensuring the referendum fails to deliver any result.

In some ways, regular well-conducted opinion polls already provide some feedback to the parliamentarians. What notice they take is another matter. There is always that split between doing what the voters say they want and doing what is believed to be the right thing.

 

[flecc]

Emotionally, I agree. Trouble could be if (say) the brexit people thought they wouldn't win on the day and implored their supporters not to vote. If there is a clear turnout rule, that could be a way of ensuring the referendum fails to deliver any result.

Then the status quo would stay in place and the boycotters opinions discredited in future. I'm sure that would be realised before and the tactic not tried.

I maintain at least 70% should take part in such a fundamental and fairly permanent decision, or better still, that in the first place it had been left to parliament where such decisions should be taken.
.

 

[Jimod]

The answer on whether to have another brexit referendum or not, is to have a referendum on whether to have another brexit referendum or not. Then the second brexit referendum will happen or not happen, depending on the will of the people.
It's simple really.

 

[flecc]

The answer on whether to have another brexit referendum or not, is to have a referendum on whether to have another brexit referendum or not. Then the second brexit referendum will happen or not happen, depending on the will of the people.
It's simple really.

Could be combined into one referendum:

On the proposed deal to leave the EU:

There should be a referendum on whether to accept the new referendum deal:

Yes . . . . [ . . . ]

No. . . . . [ . . . ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the result is we should have a referendum on acceptance, how would you vote?

Accept . . . . . [ . . . ]

Reject . . . . . . [ . . . ]
.

 

[Jimod]

Could be combined into one referendum:

On the proposed deal to leave the EU:

There should be a referendum on whether to accept the new referendum deal:

Yes . . . . [ . . . ]

No. . . . . [ . . . ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the result is we should have a referendum on acceptance, how would you vote?

Accept . . . . . [ . . . ]

Reject . . . . . . [ . . . ]
.

It's a good idea but it wouldn't work. You're asking the proletariat to make 2 important decisions at the same time. There was a woman in the audience of Question Time once who said she'd been undecided about the referendum right up until the night before it. Then she thought "straight bananas" and voted leave. You couldn't ask that poor lady to make 2 decisions at the same time.
Strangely though, no one asked her if she'd ever actually seen a straight banana.

 

[flecc]

It's a good idea but it wouldn't work. You're asking the proletariat to make 2 important decisions at the same time. There was a woman in the audience of Question Time once who said she'd been undecided about the referendum right up until the night before it. Then she thought "straight bananas" and voted leave. You couldn't ask that poor lady to make 2 decisions at the same time.
Strangely though, no one asked her if she'd ever actually seen a straight banana.

Most Londoners manage. We've had elections combining two or even three of the following:

For European Parliament members, Parliamentary constituency MPs, GLC councillors, Local councillors and the Mayor of London post.

Some of those have huge lists of names to choose from and they include proportional representation counts which lend themselves to tactical voting.

Maybe some areas need to challenge their public more, that's the basis of education.
.