Cyclezee....The End

[Cyclezee]

Nice, but I'm another electric driver like you and prefer my new 2018 Nissan Leaf. A better fit in Sainsburys car park.
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I have tried several electric cars over the last year including the original Leaf and the Mk2, both great cars but it's shame about the 'rapidgate' issue with the Mk2.
My wife and I have a used Zoe 22 Kw each. I also have a semi dirty diesel Citroen DS 5H hybrid which I intend sell soon. My next car will either be a Leaf or Zoe 40i for the extra range. I have to say I am so impressed with the Zoe, they are great for 90% of our journeys.
We also have a Myenergi Zappi at home where 90% of charging takes place and most of that came from our solar panels during the summer.
If money was no object it would be the Jaguar iPace, Teslas are just too wide for the UK.
A couple of times I have given lifts in my Zoe to marshals at Silverstone who are petrol heads to a man.....or woman, but they were quite surprised how quiet and nippy the Zoe is.
Earlier this year my driveway had 3.5 electric cars

 

[flecc]

I have tried several electric cars over the last year including the original Leaf and the Mk2, both great cars but it's shame about the 'rapidgate' issue with the Mk2.
If money was no object it would be the Jaguar iPace,

Yes the Jaguar looks like a good proposition.

I'm not concerned about "Rapidgate" since I haven't signed up to any charge network. Living on the southern edge of London I can go anywhere from Hastings to the east or Littlehampton to the west and all the country between and come back on a single charge. I can go there and back to much of Kent, all of London, Surrey, East Sussex, most of West Sussex and chunks of Hampshire and Berkshire.

At 82 I'm not interested in very long journeys or protracted driving, South East traffic conditions limit how many miles in each hour anyway. Never using Eco I've done two range tests, in the one using the performance to the full as much as I could in this area, my mileage and the little charge that was left amounted to 146 miles.

Having got used to the Leaf remaining charge gauge I did an all out test with normal relaxed driving, again never using Eco. At 162 miles I had roughly 3% left and the car was pleading with me to urgently charge! But that 3% was plenty enough for me to zoom up my 14% hill and into my garage with still some left. At some 4.5 hours driving that was more than enough for me.

I've got the 40 kWh battery of course, but I've heard next years model will have 63 kWh. That would be almost 260 miles maximum in my hands, but I don't need it.

I love the new Leaf, in the first seven weeks I equalled the whole of my last year's car mileage!
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[Cyclezee]

Yes the Jaguar looks like a good proposition.

I'm not concerned about "Rapidgate" since I haven't signed up to any charge network. Living on the southern edge of London I can go anywhere from Hastings to the east or Littlehampton to the west and all the country between and come back on a single charge. I can go there and back to much of Kent, all of London, Surrey, East Sussex, most of West Sussex and chunks of Hampshire and Berkshire.

At 82 I'm not interested in very long journeys or protracted driving, South East traffic conditions limit how many miles in each hour anyway. Never using Eco I've done two range tests, in the one using the performance to the full as much as I could in this area, my mileage and the little charge that was left amounted to 146 miles.

Having got used to the Leaf remaining charge gauge I did an all out test with normal relaxed driving, again never using Eco. At 162 miles I had roughly 3% left and the car was pleading with me to urgently charge! But that 3% was plenty enough for me to zoom up my 14% hill and into my garage with still some left. At some 4.5 hours driving that was more than enough for me.

I've got the 40 kWh battery of course, but I've heard next years model will have 63 kWh. That would be almost 260 miles maximum in my hands, but I don't need it.

I love the new Leaf, in the first seven weeks I equalled the whole of my last year's car mileage!
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I can see rapidgate is not an issue for you, but if I was travelling a long distance e.g. to Scotland I reckon I could do the journey quicker in my 22 kWh Zoe. I would of course have to charge more frequently, but I could rapid charge at 43 kWh where as if starting in a fully charged Mk2 Leaf due the passive battery cooling the 2nd charge would be much slower.
Below is an image I took in the Leaf Mk2 rapid charging at 50 kWh pump late one summer evening, unfortunately the battery temp does not show up in the image, but it was quite hot so only charging at 26 kWh.

 

[Woosh]

but I've heard next years model will have 63 kWh.

that would be ideal for me to commute between Paris and Southend.

 

[flecc]

I can see rapidgate is not an issue for you, but if I was travelling a long distance e.g. to Scotland I reckon I could do the journey quicker in my 22 kWh Zoe. I would of course have to charge more frequently, but I could rapid charge at 43 kWh where as if starting in a fully charged Mk2 Leaf due the passive battery cooling the 2nd charge would be much slower.

I think there is a hidden intentional agenda behind this rapid charge issue and the optional battery rental prices show it. Nissan have listed the things that shorten battery life the most and rapid charging figures highly of course.

When renting the battery which few Leaf customers do, the cost for the lowest mileage users appears to just cover the battery cost over the 8 year warranty period. But for the highest mileage users the battery rental over the 8 years is more than half again the battery cost.

To me that means Nissan expect a high failure rate to reach 8 years and consequent warranty replacements, so for those who buy outright with battery, the warranty claims could prove very expensive for Nissan. Of course it's the high mileage users who use rapid charging the most, so limiting those charges in both charge rate and numbers will cut that unwelcome warranty expense.

Once again underlining that battery technology still has a long way to go before being fully what's needed.
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[Cyclezee]

I think there is a hidden intentional agenda behind this rapid charge issue and the optional battery rental prices show it. Nissan have listed the things that shorten battery life the most and rapid charging figures highly of course.

When renting the battery which few Leaf customers do, the cost for the lowest mileage users appears to just cover the battery cost over the 8 year warranty period. But for the highest mileage users the battery rental over the 8 years is more than half again the battery cost.

To me that means Nissan expect a high failure rate to reach 8 years and consequent warranty replacements, so for those who buy outright with battery, the warranty claims could prove very expensive for Nissan. Of course it's the high mileage users who use rapid charging the most, so limiting those charges in both charge rate and numbers will cut that unwelcome warranty expense.

Once again underlining that battery technology still has a long way to go before being fully what's needed.
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I understood Nissan stopped battery leasing when the introduced the Leaf 2.
I'm sure rapidgate was not an oversight by Nissan but deliberate way of extending battery life, although the NV200 40kWh does active cooling as will the 60 kWh Leaf, so it is rather puzzling.

 

[flecc]

I understood Nissan stopped battery leasing when the introduced the Leaf 2.
I'm sure rapidgate was not an oversight by Nissan but deliberate way of extending battery life, although the NV200 40kWh does active cooling as will the 60 kWh Leaf, so it is rather puzzling.

They were offering battery leasing for the Leaf 2 online when I first placed an order, but I've no idea if they've discontinued that since.

Discontinuing active cooling on the 40 kW may have also been in the interest of a range increase over the previous 30 kW, since cooling uses current. Looking at the superficial figures for the Leaf 2, power increased by 40% but capacity only by 33%, so one would think it would have less range or at most the same as the 30 kW Leaf 1. But in fact it does have a markedly longer range as I've found with mine, even though I never use Eco or e-pedal.

Of course range and too many rapid charges will be far less of an issue with the 63 kW battery, so bringing back cooling made more viable. Charge durations may make some unhappy though, a rapid charge on the 40 kW already nearing an hour
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[Cyclezee]

They were offering battery leasing for the Leaf 2 online when I first placed an order, but I've no idea if they've discontinued that since.

Discontinuing active cooling on the 40 kW may have also been in the interest of a range increase over the previous 30 kW, since cooling uses current. Looking at the superficial figures for the Leaf 2, power increased by 40% but capacity only by 33%, so one would think it would have less range or at most the same as the 30 kW Leaf 1. But in fact it does have a markedly longer range as I've found with mine, even though I never use Eco or e-pedal.

Of course range and too many rapid charges will be far less of an issue with the 63 kW battery, so bringing back cooling made more viable. Charge durations may make some unhappy though, a rapid charge on the 40 kW already nearing an hour
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My motoring plan for the future is to keep both our current Zoe's and sell the DS5 Hybrid.

Then wait for the Zoe 2 with a reported genuine 250 mile range, that is about a year away and needs a bit of attention to the aesthetics

Bad news today that the government is reducing the EV grant from £4500 to £3500 and scrapping grants entirely for Hybrids and PHEVs

 

[flecc]

Then wait for the Zoe 2 with a reported genuine 250 mile range, that is about a year away and needs a bit of attention to the aesthetics

Bad news today that the government is reducing the EV grant from £4500 to £3500 and scrapping grants entirely for Hybrids and PHEVs

Good plan, when both Zoe and Leaf have that 250 mile range next year it may boost e-car sales since that should meet most needs.

I'm actually relieved the e-car grant cuts are so small, I honestly thought they'd halve them, given their economy mindedness. I don't object to the removal of grants from hybrids and PHEVs, the small battery PHEVs in particular have been a bit of a joke with low e-power and miniscule e-range, bursting back into i.c mode as soon as one accelerates a bit. Again the longer range e-cars will remove the need for PHEV hybrids for most drivers.

What the government should more usefully do now is get a grip on the charge point situation. The present set-up where one needs to pay monthly or annual fees to a myriad of different companies is a major deterrent for e-car sales, made worse by their app systems often failing and the number of charge points out of action at any one time.

To my mind the most sensible model is US company Instavolt's system, no membership fee or apps, just tap a contactless card to connect and get a charge. They should all be pushed that simple and easy way as a standard system nationally. That's just competition on price and service (coverage) like all other retailers, rather than the present closed shop locking out if one doesn't pay to belong.
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[Cyclezee]

Good plan, when both Zoe and Leaf have that 250 mile range next year it may boost e-car sales since that should meet most needs.

I'm actually relieved the e-car grant cuts are so small, I honestly thought they'd halve them, given their economy mindedness. I don't object to the removal of grants from hybrids and PHEVs, the small battery PHEVs in particular have been a bit of a joke with low e-power and miniscule e-range, bursting back into i.c mode as soon as one accelerates a bit. Again the longer range e-cars will remove the need for PHEV hybrids for most drivers.

What the government should more usefully do now is get a grip on the charge point situation. The present set-up where one needs to pay monthly or annual fees to a myriad of different companies is a major deterrent for e-car sales, made worse by their app systems often failing and the number of charge points out of action at any one time.

To my mind the most sensible model is US company Instavolt's system, no membership fee or apps, just tap a contactless card to connect and get a charge. They should all be pushed that simple and easy way as a standard system nationally. That's just competition on price and service (coverage) like all other retailers, rather than the present closed shop locking out if one doesn't pay to belong.
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I totally agree about payment for charging.
90% of our charging is done at home, if we are on a long journey we use Polar or Ecotricity chargers so that means using a contactless card for Polar and an app for Ecotricity. I believe contactless payment with debit or credit cards will be with us soon.
As I am sure you are aware BP have taken over Chargemaster / Polar and Shell are installing chargers on a few of their forecourts.
Interesting to note that currently charging in Scotland and Ireland is still free.

 

[flecc]

As I am sure you are aware BP have taken over Chargemaster / Polar and Shell are installing chargers on a few of their forecourts.

Yes, BP have said they'll put chargers on all their forecourts, but if it means paying the almost £8 a month Polar membership that's useless for very occasional users. I might only use that once a year on a possible run to my brother's in Dorset, so about £90 for maybe two charges! Unless they allow one to join for a month only from time to time, but that would be a lot of hassle of course.

Interesting to note that currently charging in Scotland and Ireland is still free.

Indeed, but very unlikely in an England that has just cut the e-car grants.

No mention of the £500 charge point grant so hopefully that is continuing. Ironically that applies for most PHEVs as well.
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[lyme]

If its anything to do with BP it will not be cheap and in your favour, I used to work for them!

 

[Cyclezee]

If its anything to do with BP it will not be cheap and in your favour, I used to work for them!

BP will have to compete with the others in the market place so I don't see how they can ramp up the price.

On a price related topic, I had to drive to a volunteers meeting on Saturday and needed to have a couple of charges at rip off 30p per kWh Ecotricty motorway pumps, total cost a huge £7.65.
On the positive side I get £70.65 for the mileage. If I had been in and ICE car I would have got the same in expenses but it would have cost me several times more plus all the pollution I would pumped into the atmosphere.

I'm not the biggest fan of Ecotricity, but I have had a couple of free vends and if you are domestic customer ev charging at their pumps is 15p per kWh.

Best deal at the moment is IKEA, spend a couple of £'s on non food items, e.g. AA batteries, get a free charge plus £6 back, sounds bonkers but it's true.

 

[flecc]

I'm not the biggest fan of Ecotricity, but I have had a couple of free vends and if you are domestic customer ev charging at their pumps is 15p per kWh.

Best home charging energy deal at the moment is Green Energy UK's late night rate of 4.99 pence per kWh.

Compared with petrol cost that would equal just over 400 mpg on my Nissan Leaf in Eco mode with normal driving!
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[Cyclezee]

Best home charging energy deal at the moment is Green Energy UK's late night rate of 4.99 pence per kWh.

Compared with petrol cost that would equal just over 400 mpg on my Nissan Leaf in Eco mode with normal driving!
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Yes, that is good.

I'm with Green Network Energy at the moment, an Italian outfit and not having any economy night rate pay 12p / kWh.

Our nearest Polar rapid charger is half a mile away and with their RFID card free for 4 months and 10.8p / kWh.

As I'm sure you already know Zap Map is the best way to find chargers and networks.

 

[flecc]

As I'm sure you already know Zap Map is the best way to find chargers and networks.

Don't know if you've seen this, a new online website/magazine by Dennis Publishing, just launched:

https://www.drivingelectric.com/

Masses of content, including new and forthcoming e-cars and hybrids.
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[Cyclezee]

Don't know if you've seen this, a new online website/magazine by Dennis Publishing, just launched:

https://www.drivingelectric.com/

Masses of content, including new and forthcoming e-cars and hybrids.
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Thank you for the link Tony, that is a good one

 

[flecc]

I'm sure rapidgate was not an oversight by Nissan but deliberate way of extending battery life, although the NV200 40kWh does active cooling as will the 60 kWh Leaf, so it is rather puzzling.

Something perhaps relevant on the NV200 van.

Although the latest one uses the whole Leaf 2 power chain from 40 kWh battery to motor, the motor power is reduced from the 147 bhp of the Leaf 2 down to 107 bhp.

The increase in range due to that will mean less need of a rapid charge, and also less cooling need with lower current draw.

Maybe even never needing rapid charging on lighter jobs like parcel deliveries, just the overnight charges, so fewer expensive warranty claims for capacity loss.
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[Cyclezee]

Something perhaps relevant on the NV200 van.

Although the latest one uses the whole Leaf 2 power chain from 40 kWh battery to motor, the motor power is reduced from the 147 bhp of the Leaf 2 down to 107 bhp.

The increase in range due to that will mean less need of a rapid charge, and also less cooling need with lower current draw.

Maybe even never needing rapid charging on lighter jobs like parcel deliveries, just the overnight charges, so fewer expensive warranty claims for capacity loss.
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That's interesting. On Saturday night when I was charging at motorway services there was couple parked next to us with one of the new NV200s, they were on their way back from a wedding in Devon. They had the van for just over week and already clocked up 1300 miles. The owner does a lot of business miles and works inside the London Congestion Zone, he has calculated the NV200 will be £6000 a year cheaper to run than his old diesel van. Cheap fuel, no congestion charge and free parking.

 

[flecc]

That's interesting. On Saturday night when I was charging at motorway services there was couple parked next to us with one of the new NV200s, they were on their way back from a wedding in Devon. They had the van for just over week and already clocked up 1300 miles. The owner does a lot of business miles and works inside the London Congestion Zone, he has calculated the NV200 will be £6000 a year cheaper to run than his old diesel van. Cheap fuel, no congestion charge and free parking.

Not just cheaper to run on fuel, but the van free too. The congestion charge over the 8 year battery warranty life with a five day working week and usual holidays amounts to £24,000, so that's the van paid for and more.

I don't know why anyone still commutes into Central London with an i.c. car when they can have a new Leaf free and keep the i.c. car at home for long runs.
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