Drive Through Gears on E-bikes

[mikepepler]

Hmm, reading this thread gives me a real dilemma!

I want an electric bike to avoid using the car on our 5-mile trip from our house to our wood. The road has a few steep hills (I usually ride up them at 4-5mph), but is a 60mph road, so cars are zipping past you. The reason for wanting an electric bike (well, 2 actually) is that when we're going to the wood to work we're also carrying a weight of tools, water, etc. and would need to pull a trailer too...

This is why I thought a drive-through-the-gears motor would be ideal, for hill climbing while pulling a trailer, and yesterday I test rode a Kalkhoff Agattu, and enjoyed it. I've tested a Powacycle in the past, but was unimpressed with the weight and use of lead-acid batteries.

But from the stuff flecc's said, which all makes sense to me (I have an engineering background), I'm wondering if a high-powered hub motor system will be better for me. Given that the Kalkhoff bikes are £1300-1500, and I'd be prepared to get one, what else is there in that price range that might do the job well? Is there anywhere in East Sussex or Kent where I could test ride a different brand?

Any advice much appreciated...

[flecc]

The Kalkhoff is still ideal Mike, for the obvious drive through gears reasons, and it's high power mode makes it better than the Lafree I used for years for towing in a hilly are.

Later I used an eZee Quando hub motor bike to which I'd added gears which was a bit faster at the job, though I probably wouldn't have changed if I'd had the Kalkhoff with the high power mode, the Lafree not having that.

The only two bikes I'd consider for this sort of towing are the Panasonic unit bikes or the more powerful eZee models like the Forte and Forza. The production Quando isn't suitable as it has no gears for the rider, and adding them is just short of impossible.

The web page below shows my sort of towing with Lafree and modified Quando:

Trailers
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[Phil the drill]

Originally Posted by mikepepler

The road has a few steep hills (I usually ride up them at 4-5mph),

Hi Mike
Do you mean that you get up these hills, loaded up like you say on an ordinary bike at 4-5mph? If so I reckon you'll probably be O.K on most any e-bike! - you sound reasonably fit!
I bow to Flecc's experience, and I'm sure that he is right about the Agattu (I've never tried one) - it seems everyone who has them loves them - so there's got to be some substance there!
I would say however, that the much maligned Powabyke commuter (the 24spd is definitely the best), despite its appearance and weight does big loads and steep hills well, allbeit not at great speed. I have used one for several years up very steep hills, carrying a fair load in the panniers, and my 15st frame. The new ones weigh several Kg less than the old one (now an alloy frame) and are available with a lighter weight Lithium battery. The Electric Transport Shop say this is the model they recommend to those with large loads and steep hills to negotiate (but note that they don't sell any bikes with the Panasonic drive unit). They ain't sexy or quick, but they'll do the things you describe. If you want it to do that job fast you'll be frustrated though.
My understanding is that the Agattu has terrific hill climbing ability, but that this is also done at the expense of speed, when under load (which given the constraints of allowed motor power is exactly what you'd expect). Unless you are VERY fit (and light), or the hills are not too steep nothing legal will get the loads you describe up steep hills at speeds very much higher than 6-8 mph).
Give 'em all a try.

[mikepepler]

Thanks flecc, I assumes I can always play with the sprocket size on the Kalkhoff to get a better top speed, at the expense of range? The other one I'm comparing it too is the Cytronex, which appeals to me in terms of design, but I'm not 100% sure on the hill climbing and towing - it's also a long way for me to go and try one

It's a struggle choosing, because drive-through-the-gears makes sense to me, but a high top speed and light bike would be nice to have too - and the Cytronex is £500 cheaper, and looks better too!

Hi Phil, yes, I'm reasonably fit, but am not currently towing a trailer up these hills, hence the desire for an e-bike of some sort to help out. The other problem is that after a a day's physical work in the wood I'm unlikely to have much enthusiasm for pedalling hard!

[flecc]

Originally Posted by mikepepler

Thanks flecc, I assumes I can always play with the sprocket size on the Kalkhoff to get a better top speed, at the expense of range? The other one I'm comparing it too is the Cytronex, which appeals to me in terms of design, but I'm not 100% sure on the hill climbing and towing - it's also a long way for me to go and try one

It's a struggle choosing, because drive-through-the-gears makes sense to me, but a high top speed and light bike would be nice to have too - and the Cytronex is £500 cheaper, and looks better too!

The Nano motor in the Cytronex has a good hill climbing reputation. Seeing that you ride the hills without power now, it should be ok on the towing as long as the loads aren't too extreme. The water in the load is a question mark, it's very heavy stuff if the quantity is high. With goods you can keep the trailer tyres very hard to minimise the rolling resistance which can be surprisingly high for two wheeled trailers.

I don't know if hill starts are involved, but it's worth remembering the Cytronex has to be pedalled off the mark, power cutting in from 5 mph, not a problem on the flat but a tall order if taking off uphill with a heavily loaded trailer.
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[kraeuterbutter]

They have tried Phil, there's been more than one example in the bottom bracket, though they've often been super expensive jobs. There's a US one and I think a Swiss one currently but I can't recollect the names.

Flyer F-Series:



pro: most quiet (no gears in the motor, no additional chain,... quieter than the panasonic-drive)
con: heavy, not as efficience as the newer panasonic-drive

more pics:
Google-Ergebnis für http://www.velo-zuerich.ch/velo-zuerich/velo/elektrovelos/elektrobike-flyer-f4/flyer-f4-3.jpg


and then Flecc means maybe the optibike ?

[flecc]

Thanks kraeuterbutter, the Optibike and Flyer F were two of those I was thinking of. Both extremely expensive of course, and these always seem to me to be clumsy by cycling standards.
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[mikepepler]

Thanks for the advice flecc, our pair of Kalkhoff Pro-connects arrived on Friday, and have done well in their first few rides. The hills I was previously going up at 4mph flat-out I'm now going up at 8-9mph, and although I'm putting some effort in, I'm not dripping with sweat at the top. More to the point, we were both able to ride to the wood and back without feeling tired at all really, which bodes well for when we start the coppicing in a week or two and have to do a full day's physical work between the two rides!

Mike

[flecc]

That's good Mike, I'm glad it worked out well. It's always difficult to advise at a distance, especially when towing comes into it.

Fingers crossed for an Indian summer so you can get the coppicing done in better weather.
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[mikepepler]

I've gone for panniers and a steel box at the woods (for the chainsaws) rather than towing a trailer, after reading about the extra weight and drag of a trailer. We can fit our safety clothing and supplies for the day in panniers, as longs as the heavy tools are at the wood already.

"Drive through the gears" was definitely the right choice, given the range of hills round here (once you get inland from Rye). I'll be changing to a smaller sprocket I think though, as I'm not using the low gears, but will wait a few weeks to give it a proper go o nthe standard one.

Originally Posted by flecc

Fingers crossed for an Indian summer so you can get the coppicing done in better weather.

Yes, although the ideal would be sunshine but cold, as you get very hot in chainsaw trousers and boots! Days like this are ideal: Peplers In Rye: Sunny Saturday!