£180 Electric Bike

[lemmy]

Having been told by my LBS that electric bikes were 'pointless', I was interested to see while in Calais yesterday afternoon that Carrefour supermarkets don't agree.

An assistant told me they sell quite well mainly to people who are looking for practical transport and who might otherwise buy a 50cc motor scooter, for example.

These are obviously cheap items at £180 and £630 but both seem to have a decent guarantee.

I've put pix and details here

 

[flecc]

These look like the steel framed Izips, the cheaper one Tesco sold here for along time as the Meerkat Metro at £349, and they may still do.

Certainly e-bikes are on the edge of the mainstream now in Britain while in some EU countries they are very much mainstream and frequently seen.

Our UK cycle trade have always been a hidebound lot though, spurning anything new. I well remember as a junior in the trade many decades ago when the first derailleur gear arrived, a four speed. My boss at the time snorted in derision, saying "Ridiculous, who needs four gears!"

He'd a have a fit at today's 27 speed ones!
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[Alex728]

I think the attitude definitely depends on the LBS. in most towns you will have a number, one of them all the lycras go to, the other the kids who like BMX, another for the utility cyclists and older folks.

Out of 5 in Ipswich I found only one who would service or sell e-bikes, and they were horribly overloaded with work [to the point staff there were risking ill-health due to long hours] because of this.

I have a feeling the LBS's will need to change their tune for survival.

I get the impression a lot of people in my age group [30s] who are regular cyclists, fit and environmentally aware are just starting to consider e-bikes rather than a higher end hybrid or tourer such as a Dawes Super Galaxy or a road bike that isn't as practical for commuting during the week due to lack of racks/mudguards and this may well eventually impact on the sales of high-end push bikes, many of which cost the same as a decent e-bike!

 

[emissions-free]

From what I've been told, but not really experienced directly, most independent bike shops are very negative about e bikes. I think this is just a typical example of human on display. The guy has a small business that ticks along very nicely and has done in much the same way for several years with a gradual progression in tech but all along the same basic lines. Then this scary new technology come along in an e bike that he's scared is gonna steal his business, just like the way the supermarkets do by selling bikes for buttons.

Unfortunately in business as in life, if you're not moving forward, you are going backwards.

I think that there will be changes coming in the e bike business. I can see that the products will get better and cheaper. I personally think that the average name brand e bike is over priced and I don't believe that you need to spend the kind of price that is often spoken about, as if it's just small change.

A sensibly specced ebike can give you a very long, reliable useage with good perfomance and specs, that will not break the bank, IF it's done properly. I like a nice label on my jeans, but to be honest, when it come to mechanical or electronic devices I'd opt for the 1 that offers the best value, all things considered (not necessarily cheapest).

If you know about high performance cars (evil devices ), I'd be with the Nissan GTR, keep the Porche, but might take the Ferrari if you were giving it away Brands snobs, whatever their mode of transport, get a real a real kick in the teeth when the young upstart whups em

 

[Alex728]

I think that there will be changes coming in the e bike business. I can see that the products will get better and cheaper. I personally think that the average name brand e bike is over priced and I don't believe that you need to spend the kind of price that is often spoken about, as if it's just small change.

A sensibly specced ebike can give you a very long, reliable useage with good perfomance and specs, that will not break the bank, IF it's done properly.

E-bikes at both price points already exist today, here in Great Britain, not some far away foreign nation. (Even across the North Sea, a few extra euros seem to get added on to the price!) you can get a Synergie Mistral or Powacycle Salisbury or a Wisper, all of them are good e-bikes. Even Wispers, at the top end for British designed bikes, are cheaper than some unpowered bikes I have seen!

I believe though from some of your previous posts you are yet another clever engineer who built his own e-bike from carefully selected components. I would be amazed if you did not do similar brainy engineering type stuff in your day job.

Now I expect if you were to count up all the hours you had spent working on your e-bike, all the cash you invested in workshop/"lab" tools and equipment and add the correctly apportioned costs of this to the costs of your raw parts you'd arrive at a similar figure to the cost of a ready built e-bike - perhaps even more!

 

[emissions-free]

E-bikes at both price points already exist today, here in Great Britain, not some far away foreign nation. (Even across the North Sea, a few extra euros seem to get added on to the price!) you can get a Synergie Mistral or Powacycle Salisbury or a Wisper, all of them are good e-bikes. Even Wispers, at the top end for British designed bikes, are cheaper than some unpowered bikes I have seen!

I believe though from some of your previous posts you are yet another clever engineer who built his own e-bike from carefully selected components. I would be amazed if you did not do similar brainy engineering type stuff in your day job.

Now I expect if you were to count up all the hours you had spent working on your e-bike, all the cash you invested in workshop/"lab" tools and equipment and add the correctly apportioned costs of this to the costs of your raw parts you'd arrive at a similar figure to the cost of a ready built e-bike - perhaps even more!

If I've offended you or anyone else I apologise as it is not my intention. I can understand that some of my comments could be seen as arrogant. Many of your comments are probably not too far from the truth but I'm sure if you were to actually meet me you'd find I'm not as bad as you probably think. I haven't made any derogitory remarks about any particular company and do not feel that there are bad ebike companies. Everybody needs to make a living and a product is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.

I've become very immersed in e bike over the last few months for many reasons. I believe that electric propulsion is the future and ebike is the best and most practical variation presently available. E bike deserves to be much more widely used and I hope that in the not too distant future there comes a tipping point where e bikes become more acceptable and viable for the average person.

My dream is that in some small way I can help for that to happen and that I can also help a few people out along the way. I know that if you have faith and your intentions are good, your dreams will come true

 

[eddieo]

We saw these in french supermarkets last summer on the way to Italy in our motorhome. A fair few elderly people using them as well around towns and they are probably good enough for the intended purpose....... Until they hit a similar price point in the UK E bikes will remain rare on UK streets.

 

[flecc]

I'm sure no-one has been offended by your previous post emissions-free, but I tend to agree wth Alex that it's not so easy to supply low cost e-bikes in Europe if they are to have adequate ongoing support. They could be much cheaper with the economy of scale enjoyed by many other consumer products but that would have to be a multiple of present insignificant e-bike sales.

I agree with you that the e-bike is the most viable way of providing electric road transport at present and there is the odd western country where they could eventually sell in large enough numbers to attain universal acceptance, for example the Netherlands, Germany and possibly Denmark. However, I see Britain as following the US model as it usually does and stubbornly remaining a car culture, and I very much doubt Britain will ever return to being the cycling nation it was forced to be by circumstances in the 1940s and 1950s.

I remember how the British public couldn't wait to abandon cycling in favour of anything else as each alternative became affordable, light motorcycle, scooter (moped), bubble car etc., always towards eventually attaining full car ownership. I'm sure that within the foreseeable future they won't accept going back (as they'd see it) to anything on two wheels, let alone anything with pedals as well.
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[emissions-free]

Flecc, thanks for your comments. I really appreciate your feedback as you are obviously a knowledgeable, experienced and well rounded individual. I agree that is in not easy to offer anything with both low cost and adequate ongoing support.

In my previous life I worked for a Marine Electronics Company as a service Engineer. A lot of the work was related to the LNG (Liquid Natural Gas) industry which is basically huge tanker sized ships which carry natural gas cooled to such a temperature that it becomes a liquid (-162deg C, if I remember correctly). The equipment my previous employers supplied was very fundamental to the safety of the cargo transfer and due to the very hazardous nature of the cargo required everything in certain areas to be safe for operation in a possibly explosive, hazardous environment. They also supplied some other products related to engine performabce measurements etc.

There are many options to achieve hazardous area certication and fail safe operation and the most appropriate is applied which best fits the requirements. Engineering is primarily problem solving IMO. I always preferred to be out in the field, which could be just about anywhere in the world, even though I could have quite easily slipped into being a design Engineer, but sitting in front of a computer in an office is not my idea of fun. Also I feel that I probably made a much more significant impact on the products by actually getting out there and experiencing the products in use, commissioning them and fixing all the inevitable problems that do occur.

There were many examples where I solved problems with products or at least facilitated the Design Engineers to get them put right, wrote manuals, created installation procedured and trained overseas engineers etc. As you probably know, design engineers do not like to be told their little baby has got some issues So you need to be pretty sure about the facts before you say too much.

I've got things in the pipeline now and I'm personally quite amazed at the contacts and resources that have come to me in the relatively short time I've been fully focused (well apart from doing a full time Chinese language course, which is pretty challenging for the average Brit that never even bothered to learn French at school ). I don't doubt there'll be problems along the way, but if you're heart is set on a worthwhile goal and you have faith in yourself, you cannot fail IMO Also, this is not all about me, there are many people involved in 1 way or another. If everyone else involved in my dream can also get something from it, then that would be just as satisfying as the fact I achieved my hearts desire. There's more to life than flash cars and big houses, although I am partial to the odd nice holiday somewhere nice

I'm very happy that I am allowed to give some thoughts and hope that I can help others. If I overstep the mark, please let me know as I can get a big carried away at times.

 

[Alex728]

I'm very happy that I am allowed to give some thoughts and hope that I can help others. If I overstep the mark, please let me know as I can get a big carried away at times.

although flecc has explained things better as well, I would also like to say I was far from offended by your comments. I come from an engineering background myself and if anything I have a lot of respect for those folks who are able to build their own e-bike, and even more for people like yourself and flecc who are sharing their knowledge freely for very positive reasons.

I do think culture as well as price is what deters many people from e-bikes (many of those across the North sea are already prepared to spend €1000+ on a utility bike!) but if an affordable e-bike is aimed at younger people it may slowly change attitudes. I am young-ish in my 30s, and some of my friends although heavily into cars and the associated lifestyle are slowly waking up to the harsh facts about peak oil and the environmental and social effects of motorised travel...

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the interesting post emissions-free, I'm also a lifelong engineer who much prefers to be at the sharp end and not languishing in a backroom office. We also are in full agreement on needs for a happy life, though I am spoiling myself somewhat in my older years which I excuse on the basis of an exceptionally long and effective past of recycling and positive environmental action.

Examples are internal redesign and build of my property in 1970 to mimimise it's fuel usage and many years of recycling for myself and 53 neighbours using a bike and large trailer for all the recycling trips, the bike becoming an e-bike for the later years. Example 1 and Example 2 .

So now in my mid seventies I don't feel guilty at having two cars as well, a very small town car and a larger car for the open road trips, especially since each one does less than 1000 miles a year, a fraction of what most do.
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[susie]

Can't find batteries for electric bikes.

Hi there, We both bought ezee torq bikes in 2006. For the first year they were brilliant. Then batteries no longer re charged. We cannot get any new ones from the old supplier or the new one.
These bikes have sat in the shed for 2 years now. Any suggestions please?

 

[Straylight]

I do think culture as well as price is what deters many people from e-bikes (many of those across the North sea are already prepared to spend €1000+ on a utility bike!) but if an affordable e-bike is aimed at younger people it may slowly change attitudes.

I think as has ben alluded to here, that it's all to do with the way the bike is percieved. It seems to me that the average oppinion in the UK is that cycling is at best a quirky hobby, and certainly not 'normal', or simply something that children do. There is also the fear factor, with people unwilling to try anything they don't regard as 'safe', this is mainly based on ignorance and inexperience IMO, as sadly most fears and prejudices are.

We are also the most closely aligned european culture to that of America, hence the SUVs, rising obesity rates, and general avoidance of physical exercise. It's a pity that little of the good stuff in the states is ever mentioned in the general media, instead we get fed on a diet of excessive consumerism & bigotry insidious within the news media & entertainment industry. Slowly being led to believe that image is everything, at the expense of free will/thought/choice.

Within such a framework, cycling just isn't 'cool'.

 

[flecc]

Hi there, We both bought ezee torq bikes in 2006. For the first year they were brilliant. Then batteries no longer re charged. We cannot get any new ones from the old supplier or the new one.
These bikes have sat in the shed for 2 years now. Any suggestions please?

Hi Suzie, the agency for the eZee bikes has changed again. After 50cycles it changed to Cyclepoint for a while but is now settled with Onbike, the electric bike specialists. They can supply you new eZee batteries and there's now a choice, the 10 Ah again or the longer range 14 Ah, both the same size case:

Onbike
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[AndyOfTheSouth]

There is a very interesting new post by WaiWonChing in the technical section.

This refers to the issue of company costs and describes some very interesting battery developments. There is also a slightly odd sting in the last paragraph in which he says that the warranty of bikes recently sold by Cyclepoint will not be honoured.

 

[flecc]

Thanks Andy, the post is in the Long Term Battery test thread.

That withdrawal of warranty is only on the old stock which are incomplete, all with batteries missing for starters, so eZee don't really know their general state. eZee have been unable to continue supplies to Cyclepoint though no fault of their own so were forced to change the agency. I'm sure anyone can read between the lines and see the reason for that.
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[dan]

We saw these in french supermarkets last summer on the way to Italy in our motorhome. A fair few elderly people using them as well around towns and they are probably good enough for the intended purpose....... Until they hit a similar price point in the UK E bikes will remain rare on UK streets.

I think the £180 at Carfour bike is a clearance price...take the VAT element out and you are talking £150.00...and they show the amount they have to sell (5,000), dont think they would do that if it was going to be an ongoing product.

If you think about it Carfour would have to be buying this product at a factory gate price of around £75.00 if they were going to sell these bikes on a long term basis. The factory would have to build them for something like £60.00 to make a resonable profit, I dont know to much about the cost of building electric bikes but I would guess that is not possible even in China.

If I am wrong then why do electric bikes cost so much?

 

[emissions-free]

I think the £180 at Carfour bike is a clearance price...take the VAT element out and you are talking £150.00...and they show the amount they have to sell (5,000), dont think they would do that if it was going to be an ongoing product.

If you think about it Carfour would have to be buying this product at a factory gate price of around £75.00 if they were going to sell these bikes on a long term basis. The factory would have to build them for something like £60.00 to make a resonable profit, I dont know to much about the cost of building electric bikes but I would guess that is not possible even in China.

If I am wrong then why do electric bikes cost so much?

Basic Electric bikes retail at very low prices in China. You can buy a non electric bike for buttons even at retail. However that doesn't mean that you can build a higher end product for buttons. I can assure you that even a small li-ion batter costs far more to buy than that complete e bike at the factory sale price. The components on a bike are what pushes the costs up massively and they are relatively fixed as they imported items from Japan, Malaysia, Taiwan etc.

The quantity of electric bikes manufactured in china is unimaginable and the margins are pretty low due to competition. Money has a different value in china so it's hard to compare. Chinese people accept a certain lack of attention to detail that the average westerner would find unacceptable. However these supposed pieces of heavy old tech junk still function but with a few problem along the way but do give a long life. Fixing them is also cheaper here and there is someone on most streets that will do the necessary work for a very small fee.

 

[flecc]

The factory would have to build them for something like £60.00 to make a resonable profit, I dont know to much about the cost of building electric bikes but I would guess that is not possible even in China.

If I am wrong then why do electric bikes cost so much?

You aren't wrong Dan, that's not possible even in China.

Electric assist bikes cost what they do mainly because the scale of sales is so small, in the UK the normal annual market for bikes is two million per annum, for e-bikes under 20,000, that's less than one per cent. Once that's divided up among the various makes and distributors, the numbers of each are tiny, so to maintain the company and give any service, the price on arrival here has to be doubled and then the 17.5% VAT added on top of that doubled price. That doesn't mean the sellers are profiteering, it's the minimum they need to survive and many still go under despite that margin.

There's also the battery cost issue. In China they predominantly use SLA batteries on their heavy bikes, but in the export markets it's the much lighter lithium batteries which have cost huge sums in two decades of development and have high production costs too. The battery companies have to recover all the development costs via premiums placed on each battery, there's no alternative to that.
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[lemmy]

What intrigued me about the Carrefour bikes was mainly the fact that they were on sale along with the other bikes implying that there was nothing 'uncool' or eccentric about them.