£500 Budget

Wayneadam

Finding my (electric) wheels
May 15, 2009
12
0
Hi.
Have looked at Salisbury LPX and the Synergie Mystral.
The Salisbury is lighter and has brushless motor which I understand to be the main advantage but has the Lithium Polymer battery.
I note that Prfessor Pivot said on the subject of Lithium Polymer battery, "Very few bikes offer these batteries yet, and no-one really knows what the life of the batteries will be, although early signs are not good."
Is this still the case?
Is there any other preferances I should be looking at before I buy?

Kind Regards,

Wayne.

PS When talking to the Salisbury dealer they told me they used to sell the Synergie Mystral but every other one sold was being returned...
Heard of such de-faults?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
"Professor Pivot" was wrong even when that was written Wayne, as I noted at the time. In fact li-polymer was already becoming common on e-bikes and was the battery of choice of the majority of the trade, manufacturers, importers and dealers. Powacycle were among the first adopters in the UK and coined the LPX name here, but other well known major names using them are Wisper, eZee and the Panasonic unit used in many well known makes like Kalkhoff and more than a dozen others.

In fact Li-polymer are in a second generation now with compound cathodes instead of the simple manganese cathodes. Typically these are now made of a lithium nickel manganese cobalt complex oxide powder, likely to perform better over time, and the Wisper 14 Ah battery is this type.

Professor Pivot's opinion was based on A to B's test of the eZee li-polymer battery under various loads, showing the nominal 10 Ah capacity declined according to the degree of workload, to a minimum of around 6.5 Ah at maximum work rate. In fact this is very much a characteristic of all lithium batteries, suffering marked falls in cell voltage and effective capacity with increases in load, being less effective than NiMh batteries in this respect.

All this said, the life of the latest Li-poly types is unlikely to be much more than 500 full charge cycles, similar to the rating of the former types, but more likely to meet that target and much less likely to suffer cutouts under load. For an appreciable improvement on that we'll need the lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) types just appearing but not yet on manufacturer's bikes, those offering at least 1000 charges and capable of development to much more.

P.S. There was a time when the Mistral was spoken of as "junk", and comments to that effect were in the forum a couple of years ago, based on historical ownership. They appear to have improved considerably since though, judging by current owner opinions.
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Wayneadam

Finding my (electric) wheels
May 15, 2009
12
0
Wise words...very informative!

"Professor Pivot" was wrong even when that was written Wayne, as I noted at the time. In fact li-polymer was already becoming common on e-bikes and was the battery of choice of the majority of the trade, manufacturers, importers and dealers. Powacycle were among the first adopters in the UK and coined the LPX name here, but other well known major names using them are Wisper, eZee and the Panasonic unit used in many well known makes like Kalkhoff and more than a dozen others.

In fact Li-polymer are in a second generation now with compound cathodes instead of the simple manganese cathodes. Typically these are now made of a lithium nickel manganese cobalt complex oxide powder, likely to perform better over time, and the Wisper battery is this type.

Professor Pivot's opinion was based on A to B's test of the eZee li-polymer battery under various loads, showing the nominal 10 Ah capacity declined according to the degree of workload, to a minimum of around 6.5 Ah at maximum work rate. In fact this is very much a characteristic of all lithium batteries, suffering marked falls in cell voltage and effective capacity with increases in load, being less effective than NiMh batteries in this respect.

All this said, the life of the latest Li-poly types is unlikely to be much more than 500 full charge cycles, similar to the rating of the former types, but more likely to meet that target and much less likely to suffer cutouts under load. For an appreciable improvement on that we'll need the lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) types just appearing but not yet on manufacturer's bikes, those offering at least 1000 charges and capable of development to much more.

P.S. There was a time when the Mistral was spoken of as "junk", and comments to that effect were in the forum a couple of years ago, based on historical ownership. They appear to have improved considerably since though, judging by current owner opinions.
.
Thanks for that flecc,
Wise words...very informative!
I was getting mixed opinions on the Synergie Mystral and infact that was the reason I got involved with Pedelecs.
Certain Dealers were "dissing" them while on this forum people seemed to have nothing bad to say?
Perplexing as I had been seriously considering the Synergie as it had a larger frame size then the Salisbury + for the money I wasn't expecting the lightest machine.
I have also read that the brushed motors are less intricate in design and therefore perhaps more robust?
Any other machines in this price range worth considering?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
There's not much in it where complexity is concerned between brush and brushless motors, the external controller adding quite a bit of complexity to the brushless types. However, both types are generally very reliable, the brush ones having the disadvantage of needing the brushes replaced eventually, though this mainly tends to be a matter of years on bike motors.

In general, any problems tend to crop up very early in the warranty period, once past a few weeks these motors seem to run for ever, only the batteries failing with time. On the cheaper Chinese e-bikes the motors often outlive the bike and end up on ebay and the like, offered as second hand kit motors.

There's not much worth considering in this price range up to £600, and in fact I see the Salisbury is at £699 still on their website. There's the heavy lead acid batteried Powabyke Euro 6 at £599, and more e-bikes start appearing from £799 upwards, including Powabyke's X-bike 6 at £829.

Otherwise there's nothing in the low price ranges that I have any quality knowledge of.
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Wayneadam

Finding my (electric) wheels
May 15, 2009
12
0
Synergy Mystral is £499 and have seen the Salisbury LPX for sale at £570 on ebikes direct.
I realise not to expect to much on my budget but that really is all I have to play with.
That said would you put one above the other?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
If it were me and that £570 is for a new one, I'd bias towards the Salisbury, partly because the support is potentially better. The company behind Powacycle is well established in other fields and serious about their e-bike marketing so likely to stay the course. In addition it's the more up to date design in both motor and battery and is more free running.
.
 

Wooky

Pedelecer
Apr 16, 2009
53
0
Near Barnstaple, Devon
Green Home Products From Greener Seniors - Save Energy, Water and Money Now! have that for £570 including delivery, ebikesdirect should match that if you prefer to deal with them.

I can vouch for Powacycle support, I had a slight problem with it cutting out rarely and intermittently, I had a new controller in my hands next day.

I've no knowledge of the Mistral but I can say the Salisbury is all but silent with only the slightest hum, so it doesn't attract attention, compared to my SB front hub in another bike that really is raucous. Also freewheeling down a hill on my route gives me just shy of 40mph on the Salisbury but only 30 on the SB Hub because of the gears.

Whilst it's not the strongest hill climber I've a soft spot for the Salisbury, can't think of anything better for the money unless you convert one yourself with an Alien kit,

Wooky
 

Wayneadam

Finding my (electric) wheels
May 15, 2009
12
0
6foot2

I believe the Alien kit to be the same componants as the Synergie Mystral.
I have test road both and would agree that the Salisbury is more free runninig but with the 36V of the Synergie I found it to pull my weight on the incline slightly better. (Plus perhaps a greater range?)
Is there a large frame size for the Salisbury?
The one that I test road was perhaps a Inch smaller then the Synergie and up along side looked a bit of a junior.
I'm 6'2...Is there any tall Salisbury owners out there?