Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

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That isn't what the document you published says, it says there is a perception of lack of democracy.

We can agree on one point: that the Commission proposes directives and those directives are suggested to the Commission by powerful lobbying organisations with vested interests that may not be good for the general public.

For a directive to become law it has to be voted into law in each sovereign nations parliament. You can't get more democratic than that can you? If they don't pass that law they risk being fined by the EU.

The UK is up for fines for a customs scam and not respecting air pollution standards. Those of course are very serious attacks on UK sovereignty, your government should be able to poison you if it damn well pleases! And HMRC inspectors should be able to let Chinese goods through without inspection - after all both inspectors were on their tea break that day...
IMG_20180720_163448.jpg

This is point three kiwi. Perhaps we are reading different links. Point 1 was about perceptions ??
I, ll enlarge it if you wish. (lifted from Cavitas)
 

anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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The European Union
The centre-right European People’s party (EPP) candidate, Jean-Claude Juncker, defeated his Socialist rival Martin Schulz in 2014 after the EPP emerged as the biggest party in that year’s elections.

EU leaders were presented with a fait accompli and felt compelled to accept Juncker despite widespread concern that he was the wrong man for the job. Only David Cameron and his Hungarian counterpart, Viktor Orbán, voted against him, as other EU leaders worried they would be perceived as anti-democratic if they were to choose their own candidate.

That is how he got there in the first place, he was voted in by European leaders.
 
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anotherkiwi

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The European Union
View attachment 25894

This is point three kiwi. Perhaps we are reading different links. Point 1 was about perceptions ??
Who appoints it? The people you voted for to represent you, they are doing what you asked them to do.

There is an error in that text, it proposes directives, only national governments can make laws. And they are not democratically elected or are they?
 
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Danidl

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The European Commission is an entirely appointed institution, not democratically elected, and it has the monopoly of proposing laws: there is no competition over who has political authority and sets the agenda at the European level. EU citizens do not get a choice over who is part of this powerful body, and the Commission is only accountable to the European Parliament in its entirety: individual Commissioners who are performing badly, frequently intoxicated, insulting to world leaders, slap them about the face, slobber all over them and generally act like something from Monty Python cannot be sacked. The Commission lacks legitimacy: it is much too powerful for an institution that is not democratically representative of the EU citizens or accountable to them.

(Point 3 again with additional info)
Here we go again, the commissioners are selected by each of their national governments. The national governments are, in western Europe elected by the people. So the commissioners have exactly the same claim to democracy as does any minister of state in any EU country including the prime minister. The portfolio or area of EU interest they have responsibility for is then agreed in the horse trading which goes on in any government cabinet. .. It is to the UKs shame, that they have continually sent sub standard commissioners ( and indeed MEPs), then poorly reported on it so it is little wonder you have a lopsided view.
 
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Danidl

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The Civitas organisation is not necessarily as alturistic or objective as your earlier posting might assure...
Read the wiki..
 
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oldgroaner

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Is that why Japan just agreed a huge trade deal with them?
Come off it [emoji41]
Which democracy gave us Drunker OG? EU fails all tests of democracy.
You try voting Junker out, you can't. We could May, might happen soon. Junker and his cronies are going nowhere, except for free lunch and drinks, on expenses of course.
Woosh
Capx receive no funding from political parties. Both it and its founding organisation are as you suggest right centrist but are at least independent and only express views as they see them. If you read a selection of articles they do express pro leave and remain views.
Agreed they tend to support Tories but not out of blind faith but because they promote free trade, Keynism and capitalist doctrine. If Labour had sensible fiscal policies no doubt Capx would report them. Their support of Tories is purely on common financial beliefs.
Reduction in poverty and social injustice will only be achieved with profit , not with ridiculous left wing ideology . You can't give away what you haven't got.
Capx publish many excellent articles. Fact.
The article about Euro being on a knife edge is a widely held belief based on data not propaganda.
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
 
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oldgroaner

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As I said you, will believe anything, no matter how unlikely
Which democracy gave us Drunker OG? EU fails all tests of democracy.
You try voting Junker out, you can't. We could May, might happen soon. Junker and his cronies are going nowhere, except for free lunch and drinks, on expenses of course.
Woosh
Capx receive no funding from political parties. Both it and its founding organisation are as you suggest right centrist but are at least independent and only express views as they see them. If you read a selection of articles they do express pro leave and remain views.
Agreed they tend to support Tories but not out of blind faith but because they promote free trade, Keynism and capitalist doctrine. If Labour had sensible fiscal policies no doubt Capx would report them. Their support of Tories is purely on common financial beliefs.
Reduction in poverty and social injustice will only be achieved with profit , not with ridiculous left wing ideology . You can't give away what you haven't got.
Capx publish many excellent articles. Fact.
The article about Euro being on a knife edge is a widely held belief based on data not propaganda.
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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The European Union
A finger pointed down from the sky and POW, ZAP BOOM! J-C Junker was suddenly EU high commissioner.

There, does that better suit your world view instead of the truth and facts?
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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Last edited:

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Loads better. If you take trouble to actually investigate subject you, ll find out democracy is almost an impossibility over entire state of EU. Do your homework OG. Research it properly before judging others.
View attachment 25893

Read point 3 OG.
"
The Commission itself is currently comprised of 28 EU Commissioners. Each member state has the opportunity to nominate a Commissioner who is then endorsed collectively by MEPs after a series of public hearings. 27 of the Commissioners are responsible for a specific portfolio such as Energy or Trade. 5 Commissioners are then appointed as Vice-Presidents, there is 1 First Vice-President and the whole Commission is overseen by the President. This position is determined in negotiations between the governments of member countries, with approval required from MEPs. Jean Claude-Juncker is currently serving as the President of the European Commission. The President’s role is to serve as a public figurehead for the Commission and to liaise with national governments to develop, deliver and enforce EU law. The President decides which portfolio each Commissioner is given, although MEPs have the power to block appointments they do not agree with. All Commissioners serve a 5 year mandate.

The European Parliament
The European Parliament is the democratically elected chamber of the European Union, comprised of 751 elected Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) representing every region of each EU country. Parliament has the power to amend or block proposals from the Commission for new EU legislation or changes to existing legislation. Through votes in Parliament or Parliamentary Committees, MEPs can also ask the Commission to bring forward proposals for new legislation. Thus, the European Commission and European Parliament have a close working relationship.

As usual Zlatan you had got it wrong the system is little different than our own is it?
By your definition our Parlimentary committees are unelected bodies too, and how is this democratic?
"The Government does not require Parliament’s approval under the legal principle of the Royal Prerogative which means that the powers that used to belong to the monarch have passed to Government ministers. These include the appointment of ministers, refusal to give someone a passport , the declaration of war, whether countries should be recognised and the signing of treaties.
So much for your lecturing on lack of democracy in the EU!
 

Woosh

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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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View attachment 25894

This is point three kiwi. Perhaps we are reading different links. Point 1 was about perceptions ??
I, ll enlarge it if you wish. (lifted from Cavitas)
If you read my last post you will note that
"Parliament has the power to amend or block proposals from the Commission for new EU legislation or changes to existing legislation. Through votes in Parliament or Parliamentary Committees, MEPs can also ask the Commission to bring forward proposals for new legislation. Thus, the European Commission and European Parliament have a close working relationship.

Which makes your post
"The European Commission is an entirely appointed institution, not democratically elected, and it has the monopoly of proposing laws: there is no competition over who has political authority and sets the agenda at the European level.

It is like parliamentary committees here entirely appointed not democratically elected
So what? seems fine with you to do here, doesn't it?

And the notion of it's omnipotence is clearly a pack of lies.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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Michel Barnier has picked apart TM's White Paper.
It is to be expected. The Chequers plan is only an opening move. Next step, the British public's reaction to what is a WTO brexit.
This time, leading brexiters will have to say how we are going to deal with a loss of £200 billion plus a year when various departments publish their guidance to businesses.
 

gray198

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 4, 2012
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Michel Barnier has picked apart TM's White Paper.
It is to be expected. The Chequers plan is only an opening move. Next step, the British public's reaction to what is a WTO brexit.
This time, leading brexiters will have to say how we are going to deal with a loss of £200 billion plus a year when various departments publish their guidance to businesses.
seems like it will be a bad outcome all round
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5969483/Brexit-Secretary-faces-EU-chief-Barnier-time-amid-no-deal-warnings.html
 

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