Colour of phase and hall sensor wires. Is it standard?

Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
1
I'm hoping someone can help with fitting a new hub to my existing setup. (i.e. without replacing everything)
I'm disabled and ride a wheelchair with an add-on powered front wheel that turns it into a trike. (To be recommended, I can now get out with the rest of the family).
The 'but' is that I'm pretty dependent on it and after several thousand miles grinding up the steep hills where I live it's now showing signs of wear. I contacted the place that sold it, intending to buy just a new motor and wheel, but it will take months to get a replacement. On a previous 'add-on' I replaced its original powerless 200W 'whatever' and fitted a MAC motor and used that VERY successfully for some years before getting this latest model.
What I'm wondering is whether I could replace the wheel in this latest model with a MAC motor without having to do th whole shebang. It has the 'usual'?? blue, yellow, green phase wires and red, black, blue, yellow and green hall sensors, and if I married these with those from the controller, would that work?

If the answer is 'DON'T' is there any way a novice like me could tell what is what in the wiring? Or would you advise starting from scratch if I can't get hold of a new wheel?
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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yes, as far as I am aware.
you should still check for continuity between the ground and 5V on the hall sensors to the same on another connector like speed sensor or throttle to be sure.
 

Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
1
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm an electronic dumbo and although I've managed to build three e-bikes from kits and do odd repairs I'm not sure how to do what you suggest. I'm assuming in the hall wires that red is +ve and black -ve (ground?). So, with my multimeter on a DC 20Vsetting I probe between the black and the individual yellow blue and green and turn the wheel backwards to get a 5V reading. I seem to remember doing that in the past, but doesn't it only tell me the hall sensors are working, not necessarliy that they match with the controller?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that plugging the phase wires incorrectly wouldn't hurt anything, but that it might make the wheel run backwards or overheat with no load. Is that just a case of trial and error?
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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I use a 9-pin break out cable for testing Hall sensors live.
Motors may be built differently but if they come from the same factory then it's fair to assume they are colour-coded in the same way.
 

Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
1
Hello again. The problem is that I have no idea what factory the hub came from. The unit was imported from Spain and sold through a UK agent (my choice had been ease of coupling to the wheelchair rather than make of hub). A few months ago I opened the motor to give it a bit more lubrication and that's seen me through the summer, so, being familiar with my former MAC hub I know it's not that and I don't think its a Bafang either, but I can't get any sense out of the UK agent. He doesn't seem to speak to the Spanish supplier and my atempts to contact the supplier by e-mail have drawn a blank. (I don't speak Spanish).

So, I'm guessing when you say you use a '9-pin break out cable' for testing the Hall sensors live that would give you an easy way of testing the various possible combinations of the blue/yellow, blue/green etc.

I guess the fundamental question is, if I wrongly connected any of the sensors would that blow anything before I had a chance to get it right?
 

Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
1
Depends on what you mean by standard. It's a 6-pin connector, but not the same type as those fitted on the kits I've used in the past. All the wires, phase and halls are the same colour as those.kits I've used.
 

Nealh

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Nearly all hubs are China made and tend to use the same G/B/Y phase colour and the same six hall colours, match each colour to the same and generally you should have no real issue. Occasionally the sequence may not work so you have to use a set up chart to find the best working sequence.

I can freely interchange 3 different makes of hubs I have without issue.
 
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Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
1
I'd pretty much come to the same conclusion about the 'China made' and my only worry is what damage I might do if the connections don't match. My thinking (from a bit of web searching) is this.

1. That the motor should run (on test) with the phase wires connected, but without the halls being connected. I hope that's right, but it might only be if its a sensorless controller (which I know it's not)..

2. If the phase wires are wrong I gather the motor will either run backwards or it will use too much power (I have a Turnigy watt meter). I hope that's also correct, but I've no idea what readings the Turnigy should give me (though I can check with the existing 'dud' motor before starting).

3. Once I have the phase wires okay ?? then there are only 6 options for the blue, yellow, green of the halls if those matching colours are wrong, (red and black staying the same, surely) but I'm not sure what to expect. Would the wrong combination of halls affect power drain in the same as with the phase wires?

Your experience with interchanging different hubs gives me a lot of confidence. Thanks for that.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
19,407
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Southend on Sea
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1. That the motor should run (on test) with the phase wires connected, but without the halls being connected. I hope that's right, but it might only be if its a sensorless controller (which I know it's not)..
a lot of controllers can do both. If the Hall wires are not connected, the controller will run as sensorless.

2. If the phase wires are wrong I gather the motor will either run backwards .
If you test the motor on a stand, the current is too small to cause any damage.
3. Once I have the phase wires okay ?? then there are only 6 options for the blue, yellow, green of the halls if those matching colours are wrong, (red and black staying the same, surely) but I'm not sure what to expect. Would the wrong combination of halls affect power drain in the same as with the phase wires?
In practice, they always match. If not, leave them unconnected and run the motor as sensorless.
 

Nealh

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If phase sequence is wrong you can get a rough sounding motor, as you have mentioned it may run in reverse or not.
With hall red v+ & Black v- are self explanatory & white hall is always for internal speed, if a motor runs unsatisfactory there are 36 combos of wiring sequence in all and about 6 will work the others will show up as poor running.
Always best to run at no load speed with wheel off ground for testing and very gentle with the throttle, the best solution though is to temporary use pas.
Don't actual fit the pas but plug in the sensor to the controller and manually pas a magnet disc by the sensor in low pas mode. That way you can apply low power without causing damage during testing.

Phase / hall chart, 36 possible combo's shuld a motor not run properly.

Phase-Hall-Wire-Combinations.png
 
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Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
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Thanks a lot for all the advice. And thanks for the 36 possibilities chart!
I've no problem testing anything with the wheel of the ground, but I can't try the PAS because it's a powered front wheel add-on to a wheelchair. The best I can do is set it to the lowest speed (4mph on a 500W motor should be no load!)

Would you recommend a check with the Turnigy watt meter or just for it to 'sound right' and not rough?

I'm now a bit worried about whether the controller will work if sensorless. I had a problem when the unit was new (about 4 years ago) and I'd been along the east coast 'Cinder track' (Scarborough to Whitby if any of you know it). The roughest track ever and I'll swear the sleepers had not been removed from the old rail track. Both I and trike were shaken to bits and my trike lost power. I stripped everything down when back at base and found one of the hall wires in the molex connector was loose (not properly engaged during manufacture and shaken out). I can't recollect which colour that was, but with only one 'failing' that had stopped everything.

If none of them are connected??

I suppose the easy thing is just to disconnect the whole 5 of them and check that out with the old motor.

But I think I've made the decision to 'go for it' and get the type of MAC wheel I'm familiar with. If the worst comes to the worst I can always replace all the other bits that go with it.
 

Nealh

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If the controller has the pas facility ( spare wire connector), you don't have to physically fit the pas sensor but just plug it in. Hold the sensor in one hand and with the other hand manually pass the magnet ring pass to test for operation, though walk assist should work as well.

Even at low speed not sounding right will be noticeable, out of cinque phases
/halls sound terrible like a bag bolts inside the hub or a stuttering as if as if it were a bad connection.
Today compatibility is fairly good and as mentioned wire colouring tend to more uniform, so likelihood is you will have little or no issues.
 

Nealh

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Some Sinewave controllers will work with halls connected or not, but one failing is in between which they can't deal with.
The difference in running is the noise sinewave sends a more fluid signal which leads to a quieter running system, the noise though most assume is the motor is actually generated via the controller.
 

Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
1
Thanks again. As always you've ben really helpful.
I've finally made the decision and I'm going to buy a MAC hub like the one I had years ago. I just had an excuse from the agent who sold my present trike that a replacement hub is likely to take another three months. I'm sure (hope) it won't take that long to get a MAC hub from China.

It'll be a few weeks, but I'll get back to report how I get on.
 

Nealh

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We are always here if you have any Q's.
 

Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
1
And hey, I do have another question. It's that the only MAC motors from EM3EV seem to be for 48Volts and as all the family bikes have interchangeable 36V batteries I don't want to rejig to 48V. But I'm assuming if I run the 48V 1000W system with the original 36V controller and 36V battery I'll get the equivalent of a 750W motor. That should be okay, shouldn't it?
 

Nealh

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Theoretically yes, 36v x controller amps = xxx watts.
The main effect though is the motor will run at 33% less speed and torque, heat may be another issue running at a lower speed.
 

Thamosy

Pedelecer
Jan 14, 2013
55
1
Hmmmm. I hadn't taken the speed and torque into consideration. I'm not too bothered about speed, but I'd like as much torque as possible. But I definitely don't want any more heat - the excessive heat of this summer seems to be what caused the problems I'm having now.

I wonder what happened to the trusty 36V 500W MAC front hub I used to have?
I've not yet had a reply from EM3ev so I'll see what they suggest.

Have you any alternative suggestions?

Another question in relation to the motor overheating. I read somewhere that adding a bit of autromatic gear fluid could help, but I'm loath to try it. I see that Grin is marketing what they call 'Statorade' but its only really for DD hubs with the 'outside' magnets.
My present system is a squirty bottle of water, but I'm sure something better should be possible.

I must read the thread about heating in endless-sphere.

Again, any ideas?
 

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