Different Bike Different Battery Different Motor

Taff

Pedelecer
Mar 19, 2011
239
9
Wrexham
Hmm.

Consider the motor...
The Neo Cross has 350w motor limited to 250w sounds like a good idea does it really matter?

Consider the battery
Most bikes I look at have 36v battery, the Storck has a 26v battery? Does this matter other than it gives a lower range?

Tony
 
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Taff

Pedelecer
Mar 19, 2011
239
9
Wrexham
I think that manufacturers don't actually restrict the power of their motors. If they did, their drive system would not beat the £399 250W Tesco hopper.
Just reread the blurb.
They say limited to 250w.
 

Taff

Pedelecer
Mar 19, 2011
239
9
Wrexham
They lie.
There is no way a CST equipped bike has the same power as the tesco hoppy.
Until a member of the public complains to trading standards, expensive bikes continue to flout the law.
Only bikes with SWX class of motors respect EN15194.
Trex I wish I understood any of this.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
I am sorry for the post above. Please forget that I said it. If the manufacturer says it's 250W then it's as they said.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Trex I wish I understood any of this.
It's all about the way that the law is interpreted - and the law (EN 15194) isn't very clear. The standard mentions a motor rated at 250w. It doesn't say maximum power produced.

Also many people get confused about torque and power. You need torque to climb hills and accelerate, not power, so you can have a high torque low power motor. The torque makes a motor feel powerful, but power is about speed (i.e. the rate of applying the torque). A standard 250w Bafang can provide enough power to maintain about 20mph on the flat with a 75kg rider as long as there's no wind. A Bafang CST, might have a lot more torque at 10mph, but if it can't go over 20mph, it doesn't have any more power. With motors cutting off at 15mph, they're deprived of the chance to make their maximum power, but they can still give high torque for hill climbing.

Using a watt-meter to measure power consumed is not much use either because efficiency can vary a lot depending on how high the motor is loaded.

If you take a motor like the code 10 500w BPM or CST with a 36v battery and 20amp controller, it'll peak at about 500w output power at 20 mph if allowed. At its maximum no-load speed of 25 mph it makes no power, neither does it make any power at 0 mph, so if you average its power over the entire speed range, it would be about 250w, so would you call it a 500w motor or 250w motor?
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Ok that's helpful. What's BPM and CST.

AND - what's the answer to my original 2 questions? ;)
8FUN¡¡Motor
8FUN¡¡Motor

The Neo cross has a high torque motor, so it makes a big difference to hill climbing. It doesn't matter that it has a 250w label on it. It's not limited in torque, but is limited in speed to 15mph.

Battery voltage doesn't affect torque or power if it has the appropriate controller. the range is directly related to volts x amp-hours.

Naturally if you've got a 26v 14 amp controller and you connect a 36v battery to it, it'll send more amps to the motor, so you get more torque, power and speed as long as the motor can take it. If you had a well-designed 26v system and changed the battery and controller to 36v, the motor would try and spin faster, which will also push the inefficient zone higher up the speed range, so you could end up with a much more inefficient system, but you'd get more torque and power. The motor could end up getting hotter to the extent that it gets damaged. ideally, you'd need to re-wind the motor for 36v as well as produce a new controller and battery. All this depends on other factors like rider weight, hills, speed, etc, so depends on individual circumstances. If you were a light fast rider, you could gain on all fronts.
 

dmcgoldrick

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 17, 2010
446
-1
Ok that's helpful. What's BPM and CST.

AND - what's the answer to my original 2 questions? ;)
1.neo cross.......dont know.... but if i was a betting man i would put my money on the motor not being reduced from its 350 rating. i have only ridden the bike for short distance on the flat and its quite lively

2. all depends on the weight of the bike, controller output etc.......battery distance depends on how many watts per mile the bike is using......my storck (25v) averages about 10 watts per mile on full power over mixed terrain including 10-12% slopes. my wisper alpino (36v) averages about 13-15 watts per mile for the same journeys. storck is 18kg 700cc wheels 27 gears marathon plus tyres, no fork suspension,..... wisper 27kg 26 inch wheels 8 gears alfine hub and kenda tyres with front suspension....
comparisons are never simple....
regards

edit....should have mentioned that storck has regen and this probably puts back 10-15% into battery...so watt per mile being used is probably 11-11.5.........
 
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Taff

Pedelecer
Mar 19, 2011
239
9
Wrexham
8FUN¡¡Motor
8FUN¡¡Motor

The Neo cross has a high torque motor, so it makes a big difference to hill climbing. It doesn't matter that it has a 250w label on it. It's not limited in torque, but is limited in speed to 15mph.

Battery voltage doesn't affect torque or power if it has the appropriate controller. the range is directly related to volts x amp-hours.
Great info thanks.
Looked at 2 links CST = cassette; BPM? R they both hub motors?

Really didn't know that a motor could be 'high torque'. This sounds very promising for me for hills. Speed limiter at 15 normal ok.

Oh God another thing to consider - the controller. What?
 

Taff

Pedelecer
Mar 19, 2011
239
9
Wrexham
1.neo cross.......dont know.... but if i was a betting man i would put my money on the motor not being reduced from its 350 rating. i have only ridden the bike for short distance on the flat and its quite lively

2. all depends on the weight of the bike, controller output etc.......battery distance depends on how many watts per mile the bike is using......my storck (25v) averages about 10 watts per mile on full power over mixed terrain including 10-12% slopes. my wisper alpino (36v) averages about 13-15 watts per mile for the same journeys. storck is 18kg 700cc wheels 27 gears marathon plus tyres, no fork suspension,..... wisper 27kg 26 inch wheels 8 gears alfine hub and kenda tyres with front suspension....
comparisons are never simple....
regards

edit....should have mentioned that storck has regen and this probably puts back 10-15% into battery...so watt per mile being used is probably 11-11.5.........
Thanks for info.
1 ok
2 So confused these days that I don't know if I knew the Storck had regen. :confused:
So the Storck is using less wattage - much lighter bike of course. :)
 

Electrifying Cycles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 4, 2011
1,005
176
Weight of the bike makes a difference when unpowered. So it depends how you ride the bike, if you are just looking to ride the bike with motor assistance weight is not so important. Best thing is to try different bikes and see which feels the best. There are both hub and crank powered bikes from 18kg plus and some lighter than this. Crank drives and hub powered bikes feel quite different to ride so I always suggest people ride both types. Key question is where you are looking to ride the bike and the type of gradients and the battery range you want. Once you know this you could narrow your search based on bike weights, specification etc. Good luck with the search!
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Great info thanks.
Looked at 2 links CST = cassette; BPM? R they both hub motors?

Really didn't know that a motor could be 'high torque'. This sounds very promising for me for hills. Speed limiter at 15 normal ok.

Oh God another thing to consider - the controller. What?
They're both hub-motors. The CST has a spline for nice cassette gears. The BPM has a thread for the generally cheaper and poorer quality free-wheel gears.

Both motors give about the same power and torque. The CST is a better quality motor and is more highly developed.

The controller dishes out the power to the motor. They come in many flavours: small and big, low power and high power. and they have many different features. As a general rule, you need to match your controller to the battery and motor so that they can all handle the number of amps that you want. The more amps, the higher the torque. It's all simple but complicated.
 

dmcgoldrick

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 17, 2010
446
-1
Weight of the bike makes a difference when unpowered. So it depends how you ride the bike, if you are just looking to ride the bike with motor assistance weight is not so important. Best thing is to try different bikes and see which feels the best. There are both hub and crank powered bikes from 18kg plus and some lighter than this. Crank drives and hub powered bikes feel quite different to ride so I always suggest people ride both types. Key question is where you are looking to ride the bike and the type of gradients and the battery range you want. Once you know this you could
narrow your search based on bike weights, specification etc. Good luck with the search!

taff here is some homework for you..........4 Ways to Calculate Joules - wikiHow


CONFUCIUS SAY
unfit big guy (100kg or more) on heavy ebike (25-30 kg) = ebike no good (make bike with 500watt motor or even bigger)

relatively fit guy (75kg and less) on light ebike (18-20kg)= bike is great (yes please i like this assist)

fit cyclist on any ebike = why does anyone need heavy bike with a motor (i will stick with my sub 10kg bike thanks)

regards
 

Taff

Pedelecer
Mar 19, 2011
239
9
Wrexham
taff here is some homework for you..........4 Ways to Calculate Joules - wikiHow


CONFUCIUS SAY
unfit big guy (100kg or more) on heavy ebike (25-30 kg) = ebike no good (make bike with 500watt motor or even bigger)

relatively fit guy (75kg and less) on light ebike (18-20kg)= bike is great (yes please i like this assist)

fit cyclist on any ebike = why does anyone need heavy bike with a motor (i will stick with my sub 10kg bike thanks)

regards
Confucius always looked at extremes. I prefer the thoughts of Chairman Taff:
Medium fitness; medium fatness; on light e-bike = big bucks for big rides and big grins.
:cool:
 

Taff

Pedelecer
Mar 19, 2011
239
9
Wrexham
Maximum Assistance
I understand that the Neo Cross has 300%; the KTM eRace 650 has 400% does anyone know the max assist on the Storck?
 

Electrifying Cycles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 4, 2011
1,005
176
There are few Storck owners on here so hopefully one will respond though do not think they work quite like the others - no stepped progression see FAQ below. One thing to be aware of the bike has a recuperation function when going downhill and I seem to mention a max speed when travelling downhill in order to stop the motor from over heating.

They are nice people at Storck I would give them a call. Very much a marmite bike some on here love some are really not very keen. So would definitely test ride one to see whether it suits you.

Storck Raddar - Storck Raddar Electric Bikes - FAQs
 

Taff

Pedelecer
Mar 19, 2011
239
9
Wrexham
There are few Storck owners on here so hopefully one will respond.
Hope so.

One thing to be aware of the bike has a recuperation function when going downhill and I seem to mention a max speed when travelling downhill in order to stop the motor from over heating.
Think that's resolved.

They are nice people at Storck I would give them a call. Very much a marmite bike some on here love some are really not very keen. So would definitely test ride one to see whether it suits you.
I couldn't get an answer from Ian.
Personally I loved the bike but don't know how it would cope on hills like the one at Wetton.
 
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Electrifying Cycles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 4, 2011
1,005
176
I have only tried it on the flat and did like the feel. However I decided to stock Panasonic KTM instead as felt the range was better value. Have fun with the search!