I own a Nissan Leaf ev, and considering an electric bike

odbob

Finding my (electric) wheels
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BMW i8 134 mpg, BMW i3 127 mpg (range extender version) etc. I chose the most visible cars but many other manufacturers are going down this road. Then we have Tesla which offers real world driving distances in an all electric. OK for a price but you all have computers, you know that early adopters pay the premium.

You are being overly pessimistic about the current generation finding original solutions to the charging/range problem. Trust them they will. It is becoming increasingly obvious that we have no other choice now anyway, they have to find a solution.
spot on, although Nissan, as a 'proper and affordable car', was first in this country, I agree with you, it is easier to count those manufacturers who are not involved in the production of EV's.
Yes, IC cars will be around in the future, mainly in museums or collectors items
 

anotherkiwi

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Petrol cars can run on LPG which is considered a clean fuel. I am surprised that BMW didn't go down the LPG route for the range extender in the i3.


Roll your own electric car! :cool:
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Yes, IC cars will be around in the future, mainly in museums or collectors items
But in tne UK they'll still be on the roads in very large numbers for at least another 30 years. That's the minimum time I estimate it will take us to build enough new generating capacity for over half our cars to be replaced by pure EVs, and that's being very optimistic, given our poor past record.
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Hillbilly

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 6, 2016
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I struggled to find data on this but found some sources suggesting the 70% gross figure, but I didn't retain any links. I didn't come across that RAC figure, but it seems low.

Looking at pages 36 to 38 I can't see the 25% you refer to

That aside though, the RAC figure don't support the 70% I found, but do support my contention that a very high proportion of car owners/users can have no charging facility at and supplied from their home.
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We are probably at cross purposes here - P36 of 132 (P25) has a pie chart labelled "Where cars park at night" showing 25% parked on the street so if the 70% + figure is on private property then the majority of cars can be accessed by private or home charging ( albeit extra cabling may be necessary). The UK Govt strategy is that public charging should be provided for the rest but that by 2040 every new car will be "ULEV" ( the Dutch have even more optimistic targets)
Scepticism on power capacity grounds is often raised, but this invariably ignores the fact that huge amounts of equivalent energy are used in recovering the oil, refining it and delivering it to the fuel tank. The Rapid Chargers, now located at every IKEA and motorway service station are actually supplied with renewable power and home charging at night tends to be off peak when the grid has stepped down its fossil fuel usage.
In regard to battery longevity/disposal some of the first generation of LEAFs are now through the 100,000 mile mark without losing their displayed capacity. Even after they fall below 80% they have a long useful life as storage for Solar PV systems.
 

odbob

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 21, 2016
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We are probably at cross purposes here - P36 of 132 (P25) has a pie chart labelled "Where cars park at night" showing 25% parked on the street so if the 70% + figure is on private property then the majority of cars can be accessed by private or home charging ( albeit extra cabling may be necessary). The UK Govt strategy is that public charging should be provided for the rest but that by 2040 every new car will be "ULEV" ( the Dutch have even more optimistic targets)
Scepticism on power capacity grounds is often raised, but this invariably ignores the fact that huge amounts of equivalent energy are used in recovering the oil, refining it and delivering it to the fuel tank. The Rapid Chargers, now located at every IKEA and motorway service station are actually supplied with renewable power and home charging at night tends to be off peak when the grid has stepped down its fossil fuel usage.
In regard to battery longevity/disposal some of the first generation of LEAFs are now through the 100,000 mile mark without losing their displayed capacity. Even after they fall below 80% they have a long useful life as storage for Solar PV systems.
Many 'early adopters' took the ownership of EV to the next level, mine is served by a solar array, which is sized such that sufficient actual energy is produced to cover the total driving distance per year, and for the sceptics re costs, my PV's were installed when there were no incentives and at £10 per watt, I believe you can now purchase PV's at less than £1 per watt
 
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Hillbilly

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Many 'early adopters' took the ownership of EV to the next level, mine is served by a solar array, which is sized such that sufficient actual energy is produced to cover the total driving distance per year, and for the sceptics re costs, my PV's were installed when there were no incentives and at £10 per watt, I believe you can now purchase PV's at less than £1 per watt
I think you were probably a pioneer ahead of the rest of us early adopters Bob, thats possibly how you got your user name. I delayed my 3 kwP PV system until 2011 just before the FIT payment and 25 year term was due to be reduced. It cost just under £9k (about £3 per watt and I know the price for a similar system now is well under a half that. It's averaged 2500 kWh/year since so with a LEAF getting 4 miles/kWh worth a good 10,000 miles of motoring pa. I rented/trialled my first leaf in 2012 primarily to try and store the surplus solar energy and then bought one of the last Japanese Leaf imports in May 2013 when they halved in price as soon as the improved Sunderland ones were introduced. I used to pack a bike in the back of these which I used when I left them at charging points for a few hours. I used to go up to a charging point a few miles from Kielder reservoir but the uphill cycle used to knacker me and reduced the distance I could cycle round it, so looking forward to my folding elec bike getting me bit further. It's battery seems to take only about 45 watts when charging so wonder whether you charge it up via the EV's 12 volt cigarette lighter outlet.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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We are probably at cross purposes here - P36 of 132 (P25) has a pie chart labelled "Where cars park at night" showing 25% parked on the street so if the 70% + figure is on private property then the majority of cars can be accessed by private or home charging ( albeit extra cabling may be necessary). The UK Govt strategy is that public charging should be provided for the rest but that by 2040 every new car will be "ULEV" ( the Dutch have even more optimistic targets)
Scepticism on power capacity grounds is often raised, but this invariably ignores the fact that huge amounts of equivalent energy are used in recovering the oil, refining it and delivering it to the fuel tank. The Rapid Chargers, now located at every IKEA and motorway service station are actually supplied with renewable power and home charging at night tends to be off peak when the grid has stepped down its fossil fuel usage.
In regard to battery longevity/disposal some of the first generation of LEAFs are now through the 100,000 mile mark without losing their displayed capacity. Even after they fall below 80% they have a long useful life as storage for Solar PV systems.
I agree with much of this and have the view that ULEVs in hybrid form are most likely the future in the shorter term. I also think that batteries are no longer the problem they once were.

I don't agree on the potential of electricity used in refining to supply the needs of pure battery EVs though. Refining and distribution although costly uses nothing like the potential energy of the resulting petrol and diesel. We will need many more power stations and are already in arrears in replacing the present fleet, so I have little confidence in our ability to meet the needs.

And that connects with the governent's target of 2040 for all new cars being ULEV. We are all only too familiar with the failure of UK governments to meet targets to believe either of these will be any different.

However, time will tell, but my age means I'm unlikely to be around to say "I told you so!" :)
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derf

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I also found the Twizy attractive and could easily make good use of one for much of my driving, though still needing my ic car. I'd still have the problem of no charging facility though, but the real killer for me is that at my age I suffer the cold so badly. It made me give up on motorbikes eventually and the Twizy is little better with it's part open sides and no heating.

I would really enjoy a Twizy in the better Spring and Summer months though.
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if the battery contract wasn't obligatory, something like this
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/used-cars/renault/twizy/used-renault-twizy-urban-2dr-nottingham-fpa-201603172047283?logcode=p
isn't much more expensive than a top of the range ebike, could do much more (and one might even have a go at hacking it if Renault wasn't so difficult
http://twizyowners.com/t/battery-purchase-of-your-twizy-battery/1117/27
I find it quite bizarre Renault didn't add doors, its such a cheap obvious thing to do to increase the market five fold.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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if the battery contract wasn't obligatory, something like this
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/used-cars/renault/twizy/used-renault-twizy-urban-2dr-nottingham-fpa-201603172047283?logcode=p
isn't much more expensive than a top of the range ebike, could do much more (and one might even have a go at hacking it if Renault wasn't so difficult
http://twizyowners.com/t/battery-purchase-of-your-twizy-battery/1117/27
I find it quite bizarre Renault didn't add doors, its such a cheap obvious thing to do to increase the market five fold.
I found a respectable Twizy at only £2.5 k, so car cost is not an issue.

The owners on your second link are misunderstanding the position. Any battery in any piece of equipment is not legally a spare part, it's a consumable. Renault are not obliged in law to supply for sale as a replacement, they can insist on their original condition of supply continuing.
..
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C

Cyclezee

Guest
I would probably have an electric car tomorrow if it would work for me, but unfortunately it won't, maybe one day.

Right now I need a vehicle that can tow a large box trailer for 100's of miles and that I can also fit 3 or 4 bikes inside fully assembled as well as a couple outside on a tow bar mounted rack when I'm not using the trailer, that's why I have a large comfortable automatic MPV that guzzles dirty diesel with no anxiety about range.

When I used to have a 37 mile each way daily commute I had a small LPG powered MPV that was very cheap to run, if the current generation of all electric cars had been around then I might have been tempted, I also considered a Prius at the time, but for practical and economic reasons it didn't fit the bill.

Recently I was close to getting an all electric car for my wife, but she will not be parted from her beloved 2006 Daihatsu Sirion automatic that is coming up to it's 10th birthday. I bought it with only 600 miles on the clock for £6000, it still runs perfectly and will probably has a few more years in it.
 

soundwave

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flecc

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It's not science fiction let kyten's alter ego explain
Volts for Oil | Fully Charged - YouTube
I already understood that, but as admitted, the refining is not only for petrol and diesel. Substitution of refining in favour of electric cars can only work if we abandon all the other products, including the vast quantities of plastics we now depend on and the vast quantities of fertilisers we also now heavily depend on for our food.

It can safely be assumed that replacing ic cars with pure EVs would not save anything like the amount of current sufficient to charge the latter. That's because the refineries would not only be producing all those other non-fuel products in bulk, but also the huge quantities of diesel for all the transport vehicles, aviation fuel for all the jet aircraft and petrol for the light aircraft. There's also the fuel greedy fast startup jet turbine generating stations that our increasing dependence on wind has necessitated.

With all these needs our refineries would still be quite busy.

Also, in the short term hybrids are the more realistic answer than pure EVs, still requiring petrol.
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odbob

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 21, 2016
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But in tne UK they'll still be on the roads in very large numbers for at least another 30 years. That's the minimum time I estimate it will take us to build enough new generating capacity for over half our cars to be replaced by pure EVs, and that's being very optimistic, given our poor past record.
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From my experience of the Solectria EV back in 1994 to present day, yes, painfully slow, but now, with so many prominent manufacturers on board, I truly believe that it will speed up.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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From my experience of the Solectria EV back in 1994 to present day, yes, painfully slow, but now, with so many prominent manufacturers on board, I truly believe that it will speed up.
I really hope so, but judging by the dithering over Hinckley Point currently and delay in even facilitating build of the other intended stations, it will be the 2030s before we start to receive power in any quantity from them. Meanwhile a return to the power cuts of the 1970s seems more in prospect!
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Hillbilly

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Apr 6, 2016
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.. Meanwhile a return to the power cuts of the 1970s seems more in prospect!
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I remember them well and those petrol rationing coupons we didn't need to use in the end. After their tsunami and nuclear shut down the Japanese came up with this solution although I might wait for the Dyson version.
Nissan Leaf To Home - your electric car as emergency home generator [Quick Look] - YouTube
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-21/dyson-challenges-tesla-with-1-4-billion-battery-tech-investment


 
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odbob

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 21, 2016
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I remember them well and those petrol rationing coupons we didn't need to use in the end. After their tsunami and nuclear shut down the Japanese came up with this solution although I might wait for the Dyson version.
Nissan Leaf To Home - your electric car as emergency home generator [Quick Look] - YouTube
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-21/dyson-challenges-tesla-with-1-4-billion-battery-tech-investment
It may not be a bad idea in these early days to include, PV panels and EV purchase together as a single package, thereby ensuring sufficient energy needs, for the majority of EV owners. Now, I know that it then sounds like an exclusive club and would exclude those who have insufficient, solar efficient roof span, but the pessimists on this thread have already excluded a vast majority of people anyway, but at least this way, there would be a massive increase in the use of solar energy
 
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flecc

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It may not be a bad idea in these early days to include, PV panels and EV purchase together as a single package, thereby ensuring sufficient energy needs, for the majority of EV owners. Now, I know that it then sounds like an exclusive club and would exclude those who have insufficient, solar efficient roof span, but the pessimists on this thread have already excluded a vast majority of people anyway, but at least this way, there would be a massive increase in the use of solar energy
Unfair!

Yes, I am a pessimistic concerning the adoption of pure EVs for purely practical reasons, but I would strongly support your idea regarding solar energy. Any measure which increases our present pathetic level of solar PV is worthwhile, and if it increases pure EVs uptake, so much the better.

Germany has shown the huge strides that can be made in solar PV.
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