Inverter ( 12 v to 240) ?

Zlatan

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Wanting to charge my Yamaha 400wh battery from 12v.. Wondering wether to use an inverter, in which case what power would I need. ( I,d guess charger is only consuming around 1 amp @ 240v)

Or is there a charger to go direct from 12v to the Yamaha battery. ???
 

SHAN

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I charge my battery via an invertor, and haven't encountered any problems. A quality invertor will give a more stabilized supply than mains electric. However, my invertor also supplies my home, and is considerably different in both cost and quality against some of the "£25" stuff available. What is your 12volt supply ?
 
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Danidl

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Wanting to charge my Yamaha 400wh battery from 12v.. Wondering wether to use an inverter, in which case what power would I need. ( I,d guess charger is only consuming around 1 amp @ 240v)

Or is there a charger to go direct from 12v to the Yamaha battery. ???
Cannot answer your second query , but the first one is easier... While battery chargers generate a voltage of 42v at about 4 amps and are about 80% efficient , so will be drawing around 200 watts . In theory a 250 watt jobbie from halfords should do the business. However a lot of the cheaper invertors do not like driving into an inductive load... Which the charger is and may not actually start, so a bigger unit rated at 500 or 750 watt is safer. You would also be better to start the invertors off load and then plug in the charger after a few seconds. Once the invertors is up to speed and voltage.I have done this with the slightly smaller 29v charger for a lower powered bike without problem from a 250 watt invertors.
Note that the current draw from the 12 v is up to 20 amps , so the cigar lighter connection is not really suitable it gets very hot , and direct crocodile clips across the car battery is the way to go the auxiliary power connector in a car is really good only up to 10 amp max. .
There have been a few threads on this forum about using inverters in caravans and motor homes and some people claiming that it killedcthe charger....
 
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anotherkiwi

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What would be nice is a 42v DC power supply that can output at 2A and a 12v to 42v boost converter.
 
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Zlatan

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My van has 2 100ah batteries. ( deep cycle) with split charger. ( both leisure batteries) Use them to power winch/ hydraulic lift. So ample current available. I have charged bike from a sine wave inverter , no problem. ( This inverter happily runs a small washing machine) but I,m not investing in one of those for van.
Was thinking along Danidl lines with what's smalllest inverter that would do job reliably. Think I,ll get a 1kw so be on safe side..but pretty sure that's overkill.( wont be used for anything else)
I suspect even a decent 1kw inverter will be cheaper than 12v ( input). Charger from Yamaha.
But not even seen one ?
Thanks for replies.
Posts crossed AK.
Yes, I agree. If you find one let us know. Shouldn't be that hard to build one ?( for someone)
 
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anotherkiwi

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anotherkiwi

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I think there must be more than a 220v AC to 42v DC converter in a charger am I correct? The Amps will go down during the final part of the charge when balancing, is that done by the charger or the BMS? Or a little by both?
 

cyclebuddy

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I use either of these two Bestek inverters. Both work. Both cost about £40 on Amazon. A 2-amp 42-volt e-bike charger consumes roughly 80-watts of mains power.
bestek inverter.jpg
The first is rated at a constant 400w (about 1000w peak) when connected direct to a vehicle battery, or 150w when connected via an accessory or cigarette socket (due to the limits of in-vehicle wiring/fusing and the current being consumed). It's the more common type of inverter, the lower cost "modified sine wave", aka "square wave". It's not a pure emulation of mains electricity, but works fine with an SMPS e-bike charger. This one gets good reviews, and I haven't had any issues at all with it.

bestek inverter sine.jpg

This second one is rated at 300w (about 700w peak). In theory, whilst a little lower powered it is the better/kinder inverter being "pure" sine wave as household electricity is. Some "fussy" reviewers do suggest it isn't as perfect a sine wave as "proper mains", and generates some interference with some devices. Again limited to 150w through a cigarette lighter socket, you'd need extra cost cables (£12) if you wanted to connect this inverter direct to a battery to get the full 300w available (to power a DVD/TV etc).

Both inverters also feature 1A and 2.4A USB charging sockets. Both inverters use cooling fans (which do generate noise). Both inverters (as with all makes of inverter) can kick the crap out of your car/leisure battery in double quick time, and are designed to be used with the engine/alternator running. Both inverters feature low-voltage/overheat/over-voltage shut-off, and are fused for safety.

Neither inverter is going to generate "perfect" electricity at this sort of price, but frankly, an e-bike charger really isn't that fussy.
 
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Danidl

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I think there must be more than a 220v AC to 42v DC converter in a charger am I correct? The Amps will go down during the final part of the charge when balancing, is that done by the charger or the BMS? Or a little by both?
The charger for li ion packs works in two modes .. for the early part of the charge it restricts the current into the pack by throttling back in its output voltage. This is because the conversation chemistry will only proceed at a certain rate.. if more voltage is applied, the process is inefficient and the excess energy just succeeds in heating the battery pack... Not good!. That phase is called constant current. When the battery has nearly charged, the charger reverts to constant voltage of say the 42v , and maybe after a time then switches off entirely. Any charge balancing , or more properly voltage balancing , will be done within the battery pack itself. ... Otherwise the charger would have some 12 cables rather than the two or three they currently have. Very sophisticated systems like the Bosch and others, have communications protocols so they can inform the charger, or other diagnostic kit, on the state of play of each Bank of cells.
Most power supplies are dumb and just give out a fixed voltage at any current from a minimum to a maximum. It is the load which normally decides on the amperage it will draw.
 
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Flyingppg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 7, 2018
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Wanting to charge my Yamaha 400wh battery from 12v.. Wondering wether to use an inverter, in which case what power would I need. ( I,d guess charger is only consuming around 1 amp @ 240v)

Or is there a charger to go direct from 12v to the Yamaha battery. ???
No need for an inverter and better not to use one in fact. You don't say the voltage of your battery? You want a CC (constant current) CV (constant voltage) boost converter.

If you are reasonably technical you can make one from one of these with a few other bits and bobs: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/222757752356
You can easily charge at 42v 6amps with a bit of cooling with one. Details on YouTube here:

If you are less technical and 2-3 amps at 42v will do you try one of these: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/152355318529

If you aren't very technical at all or just want an easy solution then get one of these: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/182671320308

Lots of YouTube videos on these. Just search for 7210a.

The beauty of the last one is that you can of course also run it from a solar panel but it will also run just as happily from a 12v battery (in fact anything from 10 to 60v and so will the others)

Bear in mind all of these are dc-dc cccv boost converters and they need setting up carefully for your particular battery. These devices are not plug and play. You can't charge a battery from a supply with higher voltage than your battery with one of these. You absolutely need to read up on charging voltages and currents for your particular battery. Here is a good article for that: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

I own and have made very nice very flexible chargers from all three.

If you want to run them indoors, make a 12v psu from a PC power supply. About £25 on eBay and lots of YouTube on doing that too.
 
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SHAN

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better not to use one in fact.
A full explanation regarding this "statement" backed with technical evidence would be appreciated, bearing in mind there are different types of invertors and qualities that differ vastly in cost. Everything in my house that is rechargeable is done so via an inverter, and has been for the past few decades. Should I stop now ?
 

Flyingppg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 7, 2018
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Everything in my house that is rechargeable is done so via an inverter, and has been for the past few decades. Should I stop now?
Absolutely. Ring a power company and ask them to connect you up to the mains.

I think the original question was can one charge a, say, 36v bike battery from a 12v source, I guess because you are in your car or motorhome, without using an inverter. Yes you can and it is more efficient to do so. All that power conversion introduces losses (heat) so best not to do as much of it as you possibly can plus why cart around an inverter if you don't need to?

But if on the other hand you are at home with, say, a roof full of solar panels and using a grid tied inverter to push your excess power back up to the grid then that's a good reason to be using an inverter at home. However I have a feeling you really don't know your inverters from your transformers from your switched mode power supplies.

By the way, buy also the sister dc-dc buck converter of the middle boost converter I suggested and you could charge any electronic gadget you own from a 10v-60v dc source with just those two chargers.
 

SHAN

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Absolutely. Ring a power company and ask them to connect you up to the mains.
Which, because of my location is not a viable financial possibility. As I have studied and upgraded my system over the years as technical advances have arisen, I perhaps thought that after reading your reply, that I had missed something, and that a new member had some new informative and valuable information to share, rather than return with an off hand flippant and non conclusive reply.
 

SHAN

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If you have a better more efficient method let's hear it.
I thought I did have the most efficient method until I read your post stating "better not to use one" which, to simplify matters, is the reason I asked you why ?
I've had a look through various sources of recognised proven information, and can find nothing that contradicts my own findings. So rather than play "on forum ping pong" unless you have some proven and informative information you wish to share in a convivial manner, then possibly the best thing is to end this discussion.
 
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Flyingppg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 7, 2018
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Kent
I asked you why?
I've had a look through various sources of recognised proven information, and can find nothing that contradicts my own findings.
Oh I see, you haven't actually tested anything. You're just getting this stuff from a book, internet, or more likely a forum I bet, but since you like your references and have them what are they because I'd like to read them too?

I've actually tested a 2 year old pure sine wave inverter coupled to the 230vac bike charger that came with my battery and measured the power in vs the power out, also those three dc-dc chargers I suggested, when charging the same bike battery. The dc-dc chargers were always more efficient with a higher power out/power in ratio (closer to 1) than the inverter 230vac charger and they became more and more efficient if you had more dc volts on the input, ie 24v charging a 42v battery is more efficient than driving the charger with 12v and so on. The inverter combo is also 3x heavier.
 

SHAN

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Oct 13, 2017
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Oh I see, you haven't actually tested anything. You're just getting this stuff from a book, internet, or more likely a forum I bet, but since you like your references and have them what are they because I'd like to read them too?

I've actually tested a 2 year old pure sine wave inverter coupled to the 230vac bike charger that came with my battery and measured the power in vs the power out, also those three dc-dc chargers I suggested, when charging the same bike battery. The dc-dc chargers were always more efficient with a higher power out/power in ratio (closer to 1) than the inverter 230vac charger and they became more and more efficient if you had more dc volts on the input, ie 24v charging a 42v battery is more efficient than driving the charger with 12v and so on. The inverter combo is also 3x heavier.
I have been building and installing alternative power supplies for the best part of 40 years as a successful business. I have worked hand in hand with "the industry" in improving, promoting and simplifying designs and applications for end users. I have learned through life's experience, that I don't always get it right, and I can learn further information from two year old to a one hundred year old and beyond. Part of my interest includes the use rechargeable forms of transport for use in remote locations where off grid supplies are the only source. When someone brigs up a question to the viability of using such a supply, I'm interested. You obviously have no idea the amount of time effort and money I've sunk into my "interests", in the same way I have no idea of who you are, and unlike you, I make no assumptions. For all I know, you could be one of the development engineers I am in daily contact with.
 

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