Maximum commute range & extra battery?

[mithril]

Hi all,

I've been considering an electric bike for a while and the eZee Torq appears to be the pick of the bunch at the moment. My concern is that of maximum range. I live in Clay Cross (about 5 miles south of Chesterfield) and commute to Sheffield. This is an approx 36 mile round trip with lots of hills.

50Cycles have previously repsonded helpfully to my question as to whether this commute would be possible on a Torq (I could recharge during the day) by saying it would be no problem at all and that the Torq had been recorded doing up to 30 miles on a single charge with no pedal assist.

I know there another thread about range, but I think the question I'd like to ask you all is subtly different to a simple max range one:

So, to you regular ebike commuters ...... Do you think a 36 mile hilly round trip daily commute on a Torq is viable? I'm 37 years old and fairly fit, weighing in about 12 stone. I guess by viable I mean could it be done in an hour or less each way without me having to shower at both ends!

I would consider carying an extra battery, but would the extra weight be so detrimental to the performance/range to make it useless?

Many thanks.

 

[flecc]

I'm sure you'll have noticed that most users reporting here get around 15 miles or a little more range when riding in unrestricted mode, and that goes for me too. You would have to ride unrestricted to meet your journey time target. I believe 50cycles use the A to B range indications, but I have to disagree with A to B, and they have admitted previously that many riders are unable to reach their reported figures. I strongly suspect that they ride quite a lot with pedal effort only* which probably wouldn't suit you if you don't want to sweat. Electrics are almost double normal lightweight bike weight after all. I think your journey might be viable on one battery initially, but batteries lose capacity steadily throughout their life so that might not continue for long.

It would be best to use two batteries, something I often do, and carrying the spare in a large side pannier, I don't notice it's there, either from a weight or balance point of view. On at least one long distance ride, someone was carrying two spare batteries and had no problems. With two batteries you might be able to complete the entire return journey without charging at work, but that might not be the best tactic since Li-ion batteries have the shortest life when fully discharged all the time. Best to charge regularly after lower mileages. As for journey time, I think it would be about an hour for the 18 miles in that quite hilly area, but I've never bike commuted so can't give an opinion on acceptability.

*A to B strongly deny this and claim their ranges are due to careful power management. I've tried to do this in every possible way, including using a modified twistgrip for perfect control, but still I can't get anywhere near their figures so remain very doubting. Several users including me report that hard usage initially on a fully charged battery such as starting a journey with hill climbing does shorten the range, but A to B's previous HQ had immediately surroundings that are fairly flat, though they could head into hills later. Easy initial conditions do help the range a bit, but not by enough to account for the discrepancy.

 

[flecc]

P.s.

50cycles are at famously flat Cambridge and also with a depot at Loughborough. When I visited there, I couldn't find a hill within reach to demonstrate a bike's fault resulting from long hill climbs, so had to resort to repeatedly riding up a hump back railway bridge to simulate a hill until the fault showed up!

 

[rsscott]

My commute is a 18 mile round trip. My place of work is only a mile from 50Cycles in Cambridge and I agree with Flecc, the only hills in this part of E.Anglia are molehills!

Riding unrestricted I would put my battery range at about 19 miles. This is with gentle throttle for the first mile or so of the outward and return journeys. After that it's full throttle all the way. I'm sure leaving it restricted would get me another few miles but I very much doubt I could hit 36 miles on a single charge.

My commute will shortly be approaching your distance at around 33 miles and I'm considering a second battery. I figure I should easily lose another 4kg with the extra distance so that should even out the extra battery weight

You may find one battery gets you to work but unfortunately the only way you'll really find out is to put it to the test.

 

[mithril]

Does look like I'd need 2 batteries if only for peace of mind. Would still charge at work to keep them healthy though as flecc pointed out. Perhaps it would also be best to swap the batteries before the first became fully discharged?

I do just need to give it a go I suppose. I wonder if 50cycles would rent me a Torq for a week...

 

[flecc]

Yes, that's correct Mithril, changing batteries at midpoint and topping up both at work would be the ideal for battery life, and the same on the return journey.

I'd also wondered about a bike from 50cycles for you to try as you're not too far from Loughborough, it might be worth you just asking for a loan of one with an offer to pay for the delivery and collection.

 

[Jaytee]

A commute of 18 miles is stretching the credibility of using a bicycle at all. Leaving aside battery capacity/range for a moment, this distance would take more than an hour to travel, even under the best of conditions. Can you imagine the state you would be in if it was raining heavily for the whole journey!!

Such a journey is putting almost three hours on your working day and this seems to me to be excessive. I don't think bicycles are ideal for this type of commute whether e-bikes or not. Surely there is a better compromise?

Can you imagine your situation with a puncture half-way, or even worse, water in the electrics and complete power loss!!

 

[mithril]

Thanks Jaytee. That's exactly why I started this thread.
I have ridden this route on a standard MTB (with knobbly tires to make it extra hard!) so although I didn't actually die, I know it's not feasible to do day in day out on a non-assisted bike. I wanted to know if the pedelec pushed the boundaries far enough. You obviously feel strongly that it doesn't (as yet at least) and I am doubtful enough not to have already laid out £1200 even though I find the idea so appealing (and I am compulsive to a fault).

I understand your point about punctures and other problems - but I guess that's just as much a problem 4 miles away from your home as 10.

There are alternative options.

1) Public transport: my only choice here is a 6 mile bus ride, then the train. Expensive, slow, frustrating and restrictive. No chance.

2) Drive part way with a bike or pedelec on the roof and cycle the rest of the way. I did actually do this for a few months. I drove to the outskirts of Sheffield, then cycled the last 5 miles or so. I guess with a pedelec I could increase the distance. Trouble is this was also frustrating. Bad enough getting soaked to the skin when you've been on a bike, but to have to put the bike on your roof rack then drive for another 30 minutes is just soul destroying and the benefits are small. Also have to leave the car in some fairly dodgy places! (as an aside I think all towns should have a few park and cycle facilities around the outskirts).

3) A moped e.g. 4 stroke Honda or even a Vespa (la Dolce Vita and all that). I'm sure all the Italian girls in Sheffield would flock round my stylish Vespa when I stop at the nearest fountain in the searing midday sun... Ok so there are probably very few Italian women in Sheffield... and very little sun... there is a fountain though... and I'm sure the beggars that hang around it would be just as admiring of the classic Italian design as any dark haired latin beauty. Hmmm, I tbink I'm beginning to see the holes in their cunning marketing strategy. Anyway, better than a car from an environmental point of view - but only just. Would probably speed up the commute with the traffic threading capability. Would eventually save money. Could park at the office car park (never there early enough to get in with the car and I have to park on the road somewhere).

4) An electric car. Few years away I think :->

5) An electric scooter... and there's only one that will do as far as I can see - the Vectrix (www.vectrix.com). This is the ideal solution if the range and speed given on their website hold true. It really does look fantastic (I know this is a pedelec forum but would like to know what you all think). They even have a fuel cell/battery hybrid in the pipeline which increases range. Trouble is a Vectrix is £7,000 and an eZee Torq with 2 batteries would be about £1,500!

6) I suppose I must list car sharing as an option, but my "green will" just isn't strong enough to persuade me to spend at least 1.5 hours a day in a tin box making polite conversation. I also work weird hours very often which gives me a good excuse to cross this off the list :->

I spend about £110 on petrol currently for the commute (and then obviously you have to take into account the wear and tear on the car). I would have to always keep a car so I can't say I'll get an EV then I won't be paying for car ins, road tax etc.

BUT - I suppose I could justify a loan for a Vectrix offset against the petrol savings ?!?!?!

Maybe I should just wait until www.teleportation.co.uk comes into being - I'm sure their forum will have all the answers I need ;->

 

[rsscott]

I have to admit I'm fairly apprehensive about my commute when it almost doubles in the new year to a distance close to yours mithril. I think the distance is achievable though as I can currently cover 9 miles in around 25 minutes. My commute will increase to 16 miles each way and i'll be happy if I can cover this in a hour which is pretty comparable with a car given the traffic problems in this area.

As for the weather, a decent set of rainproof gear will help keep you warm and dry. One of the advantages of an electric bike is that you don't suffer the same symptoms as an ordinary cyclist i.e sweat. A decent fabric such as eVent will do the trick.

As for punctures, I swear by Schwalbe Marathon Plus - these tyres are almost bombproof and would be a must for commute of this magnitude. One of the insurance companies on the main site offers breakdown insurance for bikes including puncture cover. It's pretty cheap too and would be an excellent solution to getting stuck out in the cold/rain in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Jaytee]

Don't let me be too much of a party pooper! Perhaps you are much more adventurous than me and not daunted by such a commute. I bought my Torq because of my own commute of just 2 miles in moderatly hilly Somerset. Before I ordered the bike, I spoke to one of 50cycles demonstraters living in the Bristol area and commuting 12 miles to his job, day in - day out.

He uses his Torq every working day and completes his 24 mile daily journey without any intermediate charge and has been doing so for several months now. He reckons he will get around 1000 charge cycles on his Li-ion battery. His preference is to use the Torq and time-wise, he reckons its about the same as using the car.

My own bike is to save me doing such a short journey in the car, as the car doesn't really warm up and it will knacker the engine if I do this short journey too often. Evenso, I still use the car if the weather is grotty.

Before you totally discard the idea of a Torq, why not try ringing 50cycles and finding a demonstrator in your area. Talk to him/her and I am sure they will let you try the bike first. (Frankly, I would buy the Torq for its fun element alone! I can't leave mine alone and now actually ask for excuses to go to Tescos!!)

If there are no demonstrators close to you, drive down to Loughborough and try the bike there. I am certain you will take it home with you!!

If you do buy, I am sure you will need two batteries and two chargers. One at home and one at work.

Go for it, you'll not regret it!!!

 

[aroncox]

The Vectrix looks like an interesting idea, however one thing I would say is to be wary of the first version of any new technology, it's not until it's been out for a few years that all the bugs are ironed out. Also, as you said, it's not exactly cheap!

Good luck with your decision making process, I took me a lot of thinking to decide how to get to work and I only have to travel about 9 miles each way.

 

[mithril]

Absolutely. I'm a programmer so I've been responsible for a few version 1.0 problems in my time.

 

[oobs]

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to slide a spare battery into the space where the superfluous water bottle holder is and have a changeover switch?

 

[flecc]

A second battery would easily fit there if a side clamping mount with changeover switch were provided for it, and the wires leading to the existing battery terminal plate are easily disconnected for leading to a changeover switch. Why not mail the suggestion to provide it as an accessory to eZeebike, Mr Wai Won Ching appreciates suggestions for improvements. Here's the mail address: ezeebike@gmail.com

 

[mithril]

I've taken the plunge!

Guys - just thought I'd let you know I've just ordered a Torq and hope to pick it up tomorrow.

A demonstrator came round last night and let me have a go and I was suitably impressed. He thought I'd have no trouble getting to Sheffield and back on one battery, but I've bought another just in case (might also encourage to go on longer jaunts into the peak district etc)

An interesting point - the demonstrator had put a slightly smaller chainwheel on to make going up hills a bit easier (I know some people had pointed out the Torq wasn't the best hill climber). I went up a couple of hills last night that normally take quite a bit of effort and the Torq pretty much flattened them out for me.

I'll let you know how my commute goes

 

[aroncox]

Good luck, even though I've complained about my bike on these forums (and I currently have yet another broken spoke), I love my Torq, it's so much nicer than the bus and tube for getting to work, even (so far) in the cold weather. I do have to ay that global warming seems to have helped as there has been so little rainfall (touch wood) this year.

Guys - just thought I'd let you know I've just ordered a Torq and hope to pick it up tomorrow.

A demonstrator came round last night and let me have a go and I was suitably impressed. He thought I'd have no trouble getting to Sheffield and back on one battery, but I've bought another just in case (might also encourage to go on longer jaunts into the peak district etc)

An interesting point - the demonstrator had put a slightly smaller chainwheel on to make going up hills a bit easier (I know some people had pointed out the Torq wasn't the best hill climber). I went up a couple of hills last night that normally take quite a bit of effort and the Torq pretty much flattened them out for me.

I'll let you know how my commute goes

 

[rsscott]

That's really interesting - I was thinking of suggesting that to Flecc in this thread:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5&page=5

as I'd done the same on my previous electric bike, although I went for a bigger chainwheel at the front so I could cruise at a higher speed without my legs doing ten to the dozen!

Guys - just thought I'd let you know I've just ordered a Torq and hope to pick it up tomorrow.

A demonstrator came round last night and let me have a go and I was suitably impressed. He thought I'd have no trouble getting to Sheffield and back on one battery, but I've bought another just in case (might also encourage to go on longer jaunts into the peak district etc)

An interesting point - the demonstrator had put a slightly smaller chainwheel on to make going up hills a bit easier (I know some people had pointed out the Torq wasn't the best hill climber). I went up a couple of hills last night that normally take quite a bit of effort and the Torq pretty much flattened them out for me.

I'll let you know how my commute goes

 

[flecc]

In fact Wai Won Ching has already suggested this to me some months ago, fitting a 48 tooth chainwheel in place of the 52, and I think he was toying with making it an option. I'd neglected to pass it on, and didn't consider it myself because of it's disadvantages. The low gear goes down from 58" to 54", which is still nowhere near enough for some of the very steep hills in the North Downs, even the 43" on the Lafree is still a bit high as A to B have acknowledged.

Conversely, the high gear also drops, from 121" to 112", taking away some of the enjoyment of downhill speeding that's the compensation for the uphills in areas like mine. I top 40 mph at times round here, and it's enjoyable using the highest gear to attain those speeds.

I'm still toying with doing what I did to the Lafree, fitting an SRAM 5 speed hub. That would up the gear range from 200% to 250%, giving both good low gears and high gears. The derailleur is inappropriate on an electric, we just don't need all those gears and just have the irritation of skating past most of them all the time. With the SRAM P5, virtually all the riding would be done with just the top three gears, and the bottom two would only be used for difficult and very difficult hills.

 

[mithril]

2 chainwheels?

Forgive my ignorance of things mechanical flecc, but would it be possible to have 2 chainwheels so you can just switch to the smallest one for the big hills (I guess this is another gear level on the throttle side though).

 

[flecc]

Yes, and that was one of the first things I considered as bikes commonly have two or three, and have even had four. Unfortunately, the Torq's chainwheel is right up against the battery and lines up with the top gear sprocket so that the chain runs in line most of the time.

Therefore, the only option would be to have the second smaller chainwheel outboard, so the chain would run skewed all the time, generating extra friction. In the lowest gear it would be so skewed it probably would be unusable. Then there's the problem of the chain changer. These normally mount on the seat tube, but the battery means there's no room for one to either mount or to swing for operatng the change.

The bike's design just blocks all attempts, and the only options are the hub I've mentioned, or a complete change of the entire derailleur kit for a greater range set to give around 250%. The latter would still leave too many gears, far more than we need.

An afterthought. Another option would be to build a Quando motor into a 700c wheel and fit that to the rear. Then we wouldn't need gears, we wouldn't even need to pedal with twin engines.