New battery technology. If or When?

[Gubbins]

All this is interesting but the original question was about a new battery technology not how much more existing tech can be optimised .. if or when?

 

[flecc]

All this is interesting but the original question was about a new battery technology not how much more existing tech can be optimised .. if or when?

Not very promising. Several chemistries have been mooted and some are being experimented on, but they most often fail on at least one key factor. Very short life is the most common, but inadequate capacity to bulk and/or weight is also common.

At present lithium-ion is still the best option for most circumstances. Sodium "salt" batteries are out there and in use in cars and trucks, but they are only suitable for every day or nearly every day continuous use. That's because when not being used they have to be maintained at high temperatures, typically between 220 and 350 degrees C, and even when well insulated that wastes current. Ford's "Think" car and the Smart For-Two electric car have used sodium batteries, but I don't know if Smart still do.
.

 

[Danidl]

All this is interesting but the original question was about a new battery technology not how much more existing tech can be optimised .. if or when?

It depends on what you want optimised. Is it capacity, is it speed of recharge or is it number of recharge cycles , is it size or is it energy density.(watthr per kg). And or is it safety and price and availability of materials.
In terms of chemistry you need to have two elements or compounds with very different electrochemical properties, preferably light , like lithium or aluminium and capable of reacting reversibly..

 

[asc99c]

The thing is lithium ion isn't one technology. There's at least four chemistries, along with a variety of cell packaging techniques.

They've all got in common the use of lithium, which as it is reasonably plentiful and light weight seems likely to continue as the choice for weight sensitive applications for some time. But that doesn't mean there's no technological breakthroughs going on, or even that no new chemistries are being developed. A lot of it just gets lumped under the li ion banner and thought of, a little unfairly IMO, as just optimisation.

There's fundamentally good reasons lithium fulfills a central role, and with the exception of zinc air, I've not seen other totally different chemistries that get close.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

 

[Gubbins]

The thing is lithium ion isn't one technology. There's at least four chemistries, along with a variety of cell packaging techniques.

They've all got in common the use of lithium, which as it is reasonably plentiful and light weight seems likely to continue as the choice for weight sensitive applications for some time. But that doesn't mean there's no technological breakthroughs going on, or even that no new chemistries are being developed. A lot of it just gets lumped under the li ion banner and thought of, a little unfairly IMO, as just optimisation.

There's fundamentally good reasons lithium fulfills a central role, and with the exception of zinc air, I've not seen other totally different chemistries that get close.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

I am fairly sure I read somewhere that the shortage if lithium would impede electric car production.. but could be wrong..

 

[soundwave]

no tax
no insurance
can park it anywhere and wont get clamped
automatic lawn mower
can take a crap anywhere and no need to pick it up.
can also be used as a wepon
no one will try to nick it
no speed limit off road
can jump over fences and hedges

 

[Gubbins]

no tax
no insurance
can park it anywhere and wont get clamped
automatic lawn mower
can take a crap anywhere and no need to pick it up.
can also be used as a wepon
no one will try to nick it
no speed limit off road
can jump over fences and hedges

You can also drive a car without tax or insrance[emoji12]

 

[soundwave]

there free as well if you nick them i stole so many that i was banned from driving even b4 i was old enough to get a licence.

 

[Gubbins]

there free as well if you nick them i stole so many that i was banned from driving even b4 i was old enough to get a licence.

But did the ban stop you driving? Or was it a waste of time and money.

 

[soundwave]

i cant get insurance last time i tried and 1 place said they would do it would of cost more a year than a brand new car.

 

[anotherkiwi]

i cant get insurance last time i tried and 1 place said they would do it would of cost more a year than a brand new car.

They must have found your videos on here...

 

[RobF]

The Tesla cells (could be a song) have been mentioned a few times.

They look to be a step forward, but from a few posts on here I gathered they are not suitable from a technical point of view for an ebike application

Production at the plant is committed some way ahead of time, so even if a Tesla ebike pack could be made we won't see it for two or three years.

 

[Danidl]

no tax
no insurance
can park it anywhere and wont get clamped
automatic lawn mower
can take a crap anywhere and no need to pick it up.
can also be used as a wepon
no one will try to nick it
no speed limit off road
can jump over fences and hedges

Nope.
You can be fined if your horse performs on the roadway. The jarveys ( drivers of tourist horse drawn carriages ) in Killarney , Ireland, are required to have big nappies(on the horses , not themselves.. but you never know), by law.
The crime of wanton and furious driving was invented for dealing with horses .. see current postings.
If you damage others , hopefully your house insurance has a personal indemnity clause, otherwise you can lose your property when sued.
The police can simply confiscate them, and have them put down , if they deem them not under control.

 

[Danidl]

The Tesla cells (could be a song) have been mentioned a few times.

They look to be a step forward, but from a few posts on here I gathered they are not suitable from a technical point of view for an ebike application

Production at the plant is committed some way ahead of time, so even if a Tesla ebike pack could be made we won't see it for two or three years.

Are the Tesla version not merely a repackaged version of 2015/6 Li ion technology?, Bigger package, slightly higher power density. Improved manufacturing scale. There are minor advances in chemistry and manufacturing and probably mining techniques year on year, and they all take time to filter through the supply chain.

 

[RobF]

The BMZ Etron cells look promising, and also much closer to being available.

They are talking about a 30 percent capacity increase, weight for weight.

I see BMZ have put out a handful of press releases in the last week, so it looks as if they are gearing up to properly launch the new cells.

http://www.bmz-group.com/News/Press/Press-Information/EN_index_1851.html

 

[flecc]

The BMZ Etron cells look promising, and also much closer to being available.

They are talking about a 30 percent capacity increase, weight for weight.

I see BMZ have put out a handful of press releases in the last week, so it looks as if they are gearing up to properly launch the new cells.

http://www.bmz-group.com/News/Press/Press-Information/EN_index_1851.html

They are 21700 cells and I wonder if they really are their own or just own name branded. They've always used other makes of cells in the past and I've never known of them making a cell.
.

 

[RobF]

There are other releases from BMZ which talk of them being part of a consortium to build a 'giga factory' for the production of lithium cells in Germany.

The first release about the new cells was more than a year ago, and it looks as if we won't see an ebike battery with them in until next year at the earliest.

I'm not criticising BMZ for that, but it does illustrate new products take years, not months, to reach the market.

The 30 percent capacity increase would turn a 500wh battery into a 600wh+ one, which is good.

Although there might be a few sighs from Kalkhoff who have been producing bikes with that pack size for about 10 years.

Of course, the BMZ pack would be smaller and lighter than a Kalkhoff one of the same capacity.

 

[Gubbins]

This is the sort of thing I was thinking of ..
Don't understand most of it but it seems to make sense..
https://techxplore.com/news/2017-09-lithium-batteries.html

 

[Steve A]

I wish cheaper, lighter, more powerful batteries were available. I've been cycle-camping over the last week and pedaling a large, spare +4kg battery around isn't a lot of fun!

cycle-camping!, omg it's called bike-packing and has been for years, look up
http://bearbonesbikepacking.co.uk. It's a great hobby / pastime, I usually get away about 2-3 times a year.

 

[anotherkiwi]

OK so you are thinking of alternative chemistry. Technology means also the form factor.

New chemistry is being invented every second week it seems. The stakes are high and lots of R&D is being funded. I have a friend physicist and she was working on this 20 years ago!

Then we have industrialisation where the investment is huge and no one is taking any risks against lithium which is still improving and which has all the factories humming along at full (or near) regime and where costs are reasonable.

So we are seeing (as "new" technology) new form factors which improve lithium capacity and power to weight ratio as a first step. New chemistry will become available but it will need companies with the same volume of production as Tesla behind it for them to get out the starting gate running.