Newbie - Advice required on conversion legals please?

[Brummie]

(1) Do the latest throttle rules apply to bikes that were converted before 2016?
(2) Do the latest throttle rules apply to bikes that were sold before 2016 but not converted until after?
(3) If the answer to either of the above is no, then what proof do you require of age or is the 'innocent until proven guilty' rule applied and the onus the police to prove that it's is newer than 2016?
(4) Do grandfather rights permit you continue to upgrade and keep the throttle forever or do refurbs/replacement kits lose grandfather rights?
(5) After reading the rules, please explain why throttles are not allowed on new bike (providing they meet all the other rules)?
Many thanks!

 

[Woosh]

(1) Do the latest throttle rules apply to bikes that were converted before 2016?

there is no rule regarding kits.
The rule about the banned 'twist and go' throttle only applies to manufacturers and importers. If the bike has a throttle, it must not be 'twist and go'. You have to pedal a bit to activate the throttle.
After the purchase, if the customers want an electric scooter, they are free to change the settings of their throttle or have a twist and go fitted.
If you convert your bike, you can have a twist and go throttle right from the start.
In fact, practically all kits still come with a twist and go throttle.

(2) Do the latest throttle rules apply to bikes that were sold before 2016 but not converted until after?
They apply to all new bikes sold from 1/1/2017

(4) Do grandfather rights permit you continue to upgrade and keep the throttle forever or do refurbs/replacement kits lose grandfather rights?
There is no rule regarding kits, no need to worry about grandfather rights.

(5) After reading the rules, please explain why throttles are not allowed on new bike (providing they meet all the other rules)?

That's the law. Shop bough EPACs have to satisfy the new rules.
Kits don't.

 

[Brummie]

Woosh. Thanks so much for your response. I hope that you're correct about conversions not needing to comply but I'm now confused because websites advertise 'road legal' and 'off road' conversion kits. Why would they do that if there are no rules for conversions?
I found the rules at https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules. To give me confidence I would very much appreciate you pointing me towards the point that suggest that EAPC rules don't apply to conversions.
As far as point (5) is concerned, could you please point me to the rules that prohibit shop bought EAPC's having a throttle, assuming they meet all the other rules (require pedalling, 15.5mph, 250W etc)?
Please, please, please don't think that I'm saying your wrong. I'd just be very pleased if you can point me towards the government rules that show your right before I make commitments.

 

[Woosh]

I'm now confused because websites advertise 'road legal' and 'off road' conversion kits. Why would they do that if there are no rules for conversions?

you asked about the throttle.
To ride an EPAC on public roads and pathways, the bike's assistance has to cut out at 25kph (15.5mph).
'off road' kits don't have the speed limited to 25kph.

 

[Brummie]

I'm even more confused and think we must be talking at cross purposes, maybe because i'm using the wrong terminology and you know the subject better than me.
For the purpose of clarity...
(1) are you saying that bikes that are home converted with kits for road use do or don't need to comply with the EAPC rules?
(2) where is the rule that prohibits a throttle on a new EAPC that requires pedalling?
Thanks!

 

[Woosh]

1) are you saying that bikes that are home converted with kits for road use do or don't need to comply with the EAPC rules?

they do.
the bike's assistance must cut off at 25kph.
The police do not enforce the detailed specifications of EN15194 but manufacturers and importers have to certify their products.

(2) where is the rule that prohibits a throttle on a new EAPC that requires pedalling?

the rule makes clear the difference between an EPAC and an e-scooter.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike-guides/uk-electric-bike-law/


we discussed the subject for years.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I'm even more confused and think we must be talking at cross purposes, maybe because i'm using the wrong terminology and you know the subject better than me.
For the purpose of clarity...
(1) are you saying that bikes that are home converted with kits for road use do or don't need to comply with the EAPC rules?
(2) where is the rule that prohibits a throttle on a new EAPC that requires pedalling?
Thanks!

Don't ask the reasons. They're extremely complicated. Only our forum member Flecc can understand them. Just accept the fact that you can have a throttle on your bike and use it how you want whether you bought the bike as an electric bike or as a kit. Only retailers have to worry about the rules.

If you comply with the important rules, mainly 25km/h max speed, most people wouldn't use the throttle during normal riding because the pedal assist is so much easier; however, throttles are useful if you're physically impaired or your bike becomes mechanically impaired or if your ability to pedal gets impaired in any other way. I always have throttles on my bikes, though I rarely have a reason to use one. They're great for bailing you out when you stop in too high a gear, especially on a hill.

I saw a guy on an electric bike today. I was on my roadbike doing about 12 mph. he came past very fast - maybe 20 mph or more - without pedalling. that's not a good idea. he's asking to get caught. If you're going to go faster than 15.5 mph, you had better be pedalling, even if you're not putting in any effort.

 

[Brummie]

Thanks (both of you). I'm still not sure where it says that a conversion does not have to comply with the EAPC rules.

So are you saying that for unknown reasons, it's just the 25Kph rule that applies to conversions and throttle rule does not apply to conversions?

On the 2nd topic, I also think that the rule makes it clear and a EAPC does permit a throttle. I think that it's only a 'twist and go' if it doesn't require pedalling.

 

[Woosh]

So are you saying that for unknown reasons, it's just the 25Kph rule that applies to conversions and throttle rule does not apply to conversions?

I did not say that.
All users of public roads, cycle tracks and public pathways must follow The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (Amendment) Regulations 2015.
In practice, the DfT is in charge of interpreting the law and the police in charge of enforcing it.
The DfT don't interpret the regulation 2015 for kits, they only do so for manufacturers and importers.
That's why users enjoy so much more freedom to buy stuff on ebay, otherwise they would have to buy kits only from manufacturers in the EU.

if you want to know the legal details, read this:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/pdfs/uksi_20150024_en.pdf

 

[Brummie]

Thanks again. For a road conversion kit, we've mentioned that we can probably ignore the throttle rule, stay below 25kph (and at least pretend to be pedal assisting), but what's the opinion exceeding the 250W rule?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Any motor that's stamped or marked more than 250w is illegal. There's no limit to how much power you can use. There's some very powerful motors marked 250w or less.

 

[Brummie]

d8veh - thanks. So... where do I find the list of motors stamped 250W with their real performance ratings please? I've read the guide on here but it seems their needs to be the unofficial guide to optimising you road ebike conversion!
With respect to my question - where's the rule that says that you're not allowed a throttle on a new shop bought/manufacturers EAPC, then I still haven't be shown it, and would much like to see it please. The rule as I read it suggests that you are allowed them (up to 15.5mph) providing that you still need to pedal. In which case I still don't understand why manufacturers can't fit them with this control logic.
Once again, please don't think that I'm saying that anyone is wrong here. I'm just saying that the info that's freely available for me to read is different to the experienced views on here.

 

[flecc]

With respect to my question - where's the rule that says that you're not allowed a throttle on a new shop bought/manufacturers EAPC, then I still haven't be shown it, and would much like to see it please. The rule as I read it suggests that you are allowed them (up to 15.5mph) providing that you still need to pedal. In which case I still don't understand why manufacturers can't fit them with this control logic.

In a nutshell. From 1983 to 5th April 2015 the UK's EAPC law did not specify how power was applied, so a throttle was ok.

On 6th April 2015 our law was amended to comply with EU law, and that only allows pedelec control above 6 kph (4 mph), which is walk assistance.

However, this only relates to the law regarding pedelec exemption from motor vehicle rules under the Type Approval law, and that only applies to manufactured complete vehicles.

Home builds/Kits cannot be submitted for Type Approval, so they exist in a limbo. There is a Single Vehicle Type Approval scheme for builds, but only for listed types of motor vehicles which pedelecs are not under the usage rules.

Hence the confusion, the law relating to construction is not that relating to usage. This division is similar to the position relating to sales. Anyone can sell an illegal vehicle but it cannot be used on the road.
.

 

[Brummie]

flecc - wow - thanks for making sense of this. I now understand (almost)!

So with risk of annoying everyone... where is the elusive rule that says your not allowed a throttle on new manufactured EAPC? The way I read it, they are permitted providing you meet all the other rules. It's only a 'twist & go' if you don't need to pedal (between 4 -15.5 mph)

 

[flecc]

So with risk of annoying everyone... where is the elusive rule that says your not allowed a throttle on new manufactured EAPC? The way I read it, they are permitted providing you meet all the other rules. It's only a 'twist & go' if you don't need to pedal (between 4 -15.5 mph)

It's an exemption from being considered a motor vehicle within the two and three wheeled motor vehicle type approval regulation 168/2013.

You have to pay to read the whole original law, but here are the relevant parts:

2. This Regulation does not apply to the following vehicles:

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

Of course a free acting throttle would not allow stopping pedalling to cut the power, nor would it allow the power to phase down towards 25 kph (15.5 mph).

P. S. I've found a link that still shows the complete law without payment, here it is.

Best of luck if you want to read it all.

The exemptions I've quoted are on Page L 60/56
.

 

[Brummie]

flecc - thanks again. I find it strange how you have to pay to read the law but my literal interpretation of this would not prohibit a throttle having control, providing you are pedalling below 25Kph.
The rules I read were here https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
It says....
Other kinds of electric bike...

• it doesn’t meet the EAPC rules
• it can be propelled without pedalling (a ‘twist and go’ EAPC)

 

[flecc]

flecc - thanks again. I find it strange how you have to pay to read the law but my literal interpretation of this would not prohibit a throttle having control, providing you are pedalling below 25Kph.
The rules I read were here https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
It says....
Other kinds of electric bike...

• 
  
  
  • it doesn’t meet the EAPC rules
  • it can be propelled without pedalling (a ‘twist and go’ EAPC)

You missed out crucial parts, including that I've shown in bold below, you can't pick and choose with the law:

Other kinds of electric bike

Any electric bike that doesn’t meet the EAPC rules is classed as a motorcycle or moped and needs to be registered and taxed. You’ll need a driving licence to ride one and you must wear a crash helmet.

The bike must also be type approved if either:

• it doesn’t meet the EAPC rules
• it can be propelled without pedalling (a ‘twist and go’ EAPC)

First, as I said above, a throttle that overrides any power phase down doesn't meet EAPC rules so it must be registered as a motor vehicle.

Second, it can't be type approved if it's a pedelec since no classification exists for that type.

So it's a no, no.
.

 

[flecc]

I find it strange how you have to pay to read the law

That's because the full editions are supplied online by private profit making companies. Government often only publish limited editions.
.

 

[Brummie]

Thanks again but i'm still not getting it - please bear with me...
I agree with you but an EAPC fitted with a throttle doesn't mean that the control system can't be designed to cut the power/phase it out at 25kph. I'm not asking why a throttle is not allowed to override other speed/power controls for EAPC rules. I'm asking why a throttle can't be used in conjunction with a control system that makes its usage comply with the EAPC rules (as per my original point (5) in post 1).

 

[flecc]

Thanks again but i'm still not getting it - please bear with me...
I agree with you but an EAPC fitted with a throttle doesn't mean that the control system can't be designed to cut the power/phase it out at 25kph. I'm not asking why a throttle is not allowed to override other speed/power controls for EAPC rules. I'm asking why a throttle can't be used in conjunction with a control system that makes its usage comply with the EAPC rules (as per my original point (5) in post 1).

Firstly how?

Remember that a walk alongside throttle, is allowed up 4 mph. If the main throttle could take over at that it would be twist and go from a standstill which isn't allowed.

All that matters is how the authorities see the law, and in that respect where vagueness exists, the senior courts interpret and judge by the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. In this instance that spirit is clear, that these are bicycles, the motion controlled by the pedals just like any other bike. It's electric assist, not electric bicycle, the assistance being to the pedalling.

It can be helpful in viewing our vehicle law to look back to the basics, and that is the Highway Act 1835 which banned all "locomotives", meaning powered vehicles. Since then any powered vehicle is expressly banned unless specifically permitted by type in law.

So the start point is always not allowed, but degrees of permission then applied by law. The degree of permission here is power assistance to pedalling.
.