Registering an ebike in Northern Ireland

[mike killay]

Seeing what Flecc has written, I would suggest writing directly to the RSVRD and challenging their interpretation of the law and inviting their comments.
It has to be understood that the ONLY body that can actually determine the law is a court.
Lawyers can give a qualified opinion as to the state of the law (they can still be wrong!), Civil Servants, Police etc. can only give an unqualified personal opinion as to what they think that the law is.

 

[flecc]

If they have to register them through DVLA in Swansea what type approval/ class would apply?

L1e-A, formerly called the Low Powered Moped class.

Limited to 15.5 mph assist speed but power of up to 1000 watts rating permitted.
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[flecc]

It has to be understood that the ONLY body that can actually determine the law is a court.

Indeed, and by treaty all EU member countries' courts have to give precedence to EU law.
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[Danidl]

David, with repect to the BA and RSVRD, I think they are misreading the law. Consider the following:

On 9th May 2003 the EU issued the Two and Three Wheel type approval regulation 2002/24/EC to all member countries. Accompanying that was the mandatory order that it had to be implemented within six months, i.e. by 10th November 2003. The DfT did that, but they failed to carry out the other instruction to remove all conflicting national legislation, leaving the unchanged EAPC regulation in place as well, thus creating the confusion.

The mandatory order further instructed that if a member country wanted any variation to the regulation, it had to be submitted to the European Commission within that same six months for consideration. The DfT made no such submission, and since N.I had no assembly over the relevant period, it also could not have made a submission. Therefore 2002/24/EC came fully into force across the UK on 10th November 2003, the day parliament approved it.

Ergo, in the absence of an approved variation, the EU regulation takes precedence over national legislation in the whole of the UK, as it does throughout the EU. That is the position as I understand it until we leave the EU in 2019.

The only way that could have been changed is if the N.I. assembly had at some time since 2003 sought approval from the EU for their own regulation to take precedence, and i think that is highly unlikely. It's even more unlikely that the EC would have approved such a variation.
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Flecc, I am convinced by your analysis, and I suspect that the high court in Belfast would also be, when that arguement is put by a barrister ,following an appeal. However I don't think that a magistrate in one of the petty sessions would see the distinction. They will read the declaration by the RSVRD, see it as gospel, and rule accordingly.

Meanwhile a poor sod, will have been fined, have penelty points, increased car insurance and ( and I mean this sincerely ) the public humiliation of coming to police attention, the reason will be irrelevant.
d8veh, NI is not the same as bigger urban centres in the rest of the UK, there would be plenty of people who would want to catch someone out and bring them down a peg. So I could imagine irate citizens demanding action.. if only for divilment

 

[flecc]

Flecc, I am convinced by your analysis, and I suspect that the high court in Belfast would also be, when that arguement is put by a barrister ,following an appeal. However I don't think that a magistrate in one of the petty sessions would see the distinction. They will read the declaration by the RSVRD, see it as gospel, and rule accordingly.

Meanwhile a poor sod, will have been fined, have penelty points, increased car insurance and ( and I mean this sincerely ) the public humiliation of coming to police attention, the reason will be irrelevant.

I agree, and it would be important for a defendant to ask for the case to be transferred to a higher court, while making it clear that an adverse magistrate's decision would be challenged by an appeal. That could well focus the mind of the clerk of court who is responsible for the court's compliance with the law.

The position is clear, the N.I. reading relies on their 1995 law, which was clearly made invalid in 2003 by the EU order.
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[tommie]

This is very important,
if you`ve got a minute have a read...

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/northern-ireland/policy-northern-ireland

and then skip down to this part..

Department for Infrastructure: Consultation on proposals to introduce new regulations to exempt certain electrically assisted pedal cycles (E-bikes) from certain vehicle and driver licensing requirements

no mention at all of any EU directive??

 

[Danidl]

I agree, and it would be important for a defendant to ask for the case to be transferred to a higher court, while making it clear that an adverse magistrate's decision would be challenged by an appeal. That could well focus the mind of the clerk of court who is responsible for the court's compliance with the law.

The position is clear, the N.I. reading relies on their 1995 law, which was clearly made invalid in 2003 by the EU order.
.

.. That advice might be suitable for Tommie etc al who are viewing these pages, but not for the thousands others . Perhaps the bike shops should send out a circular on the lines quoted , to their registered customers. It is a dilemma for them.

 

[Danidl]

This is very important,
if you`ve got a minute have a read...

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/northern-ireland/policy-northern-ireland

and then skip down to this part..

Department for Infrastructure: Consultation on proposals to introduce new regulations to exempt certain electrically assisted pedal cycles (E-bikes) from certain vehicle and driver licensing requirements

no mention at all of any EU directive??

.. except that the eapc regulations are exactly the EU regulations. The problem is that civil servants can only work within the rules they have been given by their superiors. Unless there is a specific law , there are no regulations. In this case nobody in NI told them or was prepared to make that decision, and in the absence of either a devolved assembly or direct rule, there is nobody competent to do so. (Competent in this context is not a judgement on the ability of anyone, but of their authority).
A high court case would provide competence.
It is interesting that they did not refer to EU directives, was this incompetence (used in the normal context), or a post Brexit mindframe.?

In this matter you have my sympathy.

 

[flecc]

.. That advice might be suitable for Tommie etc al who are viewing these pages, but not for the thousands others . Perhaps the bike shops should send out a circular on the lines quoted , to their registered customers. It is a dilemma for them.

Yes, I understand that. Perhaps the best action would be for the bike shops to get together to mount a legal challenge to this anomally.
.

 

[flecc]

This is very important,
if you`ve got a minute have a read...

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/northern-ireland/policy-northern-ireland

and then skip down to this part..

Department for Infrastructure: Consultation on proposals to introduce new regulations to exempt certain electrically assisted pedal cycles (E-bikes) from certain vehicle and driver licensing requirements

no mention at all of any EU directive??

It is interesting that they did not refer to EU directives

There is a mention Tommie and Danidl, in the Executive Summary. They've used the names rather than all the numbers of the type approval laws:

"In addition proposed new EAPC (Construction and Use) Regulations will set out the construction requirements for these cycles and will align these criteria with European Whole Vehicle Type Approval and the European Standard (BS EN Standard 15194:2009)"
.

 

[Danidl]

There is a mention Tommie and Danidl, in the Executive Summary. They've used the names rather than all the numbers of the type approval laws:

"In addition proposed new EAPC (Construction and Use) Regulations will set out the construction requirements for these cycles and will align these criteria with European Whole Vehicle Type Approval and the European Standard (BS EN Standard 15194:2009)"
.

.. that was not exactly the context of my quote... I had referred to epacs earlier , . My context was in the supremcy of EU law , why there had been no reference.

 

[tommie]

the supremcy of EU law , why there had been no reference.

and that`s the crux of the matter as i see it... does present EU law/directives/regulations take precedence over what`s presently cobbled together here?

By the way it seems i was wrong earlier when i assumed the regulations had recently changed here to give ebikes `motorbike` status when in fact it seems there was never any regulations to begin with! Unbelievable!

 

[Danidl]

and that`s the crux of the matter as i see it... does present EU law/directives/regulations take precedence over what`s presently cobbled together here?

By the way it seems i was wrong earlier when i assumed the regulations had recently changed here to give ebikes `motorbike` status when in fact it seems there was never any regulations to begin with! Unbelievable!

.. we can speculate and pontificate about the law here, but until a ruling is given in a court case , in this instance, Belfast, it is value less.

 

[flecc]

does present EU law/directives/regulations take precedence over what`s presently cobbled together here?

EU laws and regulations stated to be mandatory do take precedence over any member country ones. Like all member countries we've signed up to that repeatedly through all the treaties with the EU.

But not all things are mandatory. For example, the Two and Three Wheel Type Approval regulation that exempts pedelecs from being motor vehicle is mandatory, no matter what N.I. thinks. But the standards regulation EN15194 that is mentioned in the N.I. consultation document isn't, that has to be agreed and signed up to by member countries if they wish. The last I heard only the UK and France had signed up to EN15194. So for that we are back to the question, did UK agreement to EN15194 in 2009 include N.I.?

By the way it seems i was wrong earlier when i assumed the regulations had recently changed here to give ebikes `motorbike` status when in fact it seems there was never any regulations to begin with! Unbelievable!

We had similar for 32 years in the UK, no law on how pedelec power was controlled. There never was permission for throttles, just an absence of anything saying they couldn't be used until the EU ruling was fully acknowledged and adopted.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

David, with repect to the BA and RSVRD, I think they are misreading the law. Consider the following:

On 9th May 2003 the EU issued the Two and Three Wheel type approval regulation 2002/24/EC to all member countries. Accompanying that was the mandatory order that it had to be implemented within six months, i.e. by 10th November 2003. The DfT did that, but they failed to carry out the other instruction to remove all conflicting national legislation, leaving the unchanged EAPC regulation in place as well, thus creating the confusion.

The mandatory order further instructed that if a member country wanted any variation to the regulation, it had to be submitted to the European Commission within that same six months for consideration. The DfT made no such submission, and since N.I had no assembly over the relevant period, it also could not have made a submission. Therefore 2002/24/EC came fully into force across the UK on 10th November 2003, the day parliament approved it.

Ergo, in the absence of an approved variation, the EU regulation takes precedence over national legislation in the whole of the UK, as it does throughout the EU. That is the position as I understand it until we leave the EU in 2019.

The only way that could have been changed is if the N.I. assembly had at some time since 2003 sought approval from the EU for their own regulation to take precedence, and I think that is highly unlikely. It's even more unlikely that the EC would have approved such a variation.
.

Hi Flecc, good point, it's practically the same situation we had here.

I wall ask the BA to make to point to the RSVRD.

I will report back.

All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

From Peter at BAGB

Flecc is correct about type approval, but that rather misses the
point. EU type approval regs rules do indeed apply in Northern
Ireland, which is why no type approval is required for non-T&G EPACS
there (same as in the mainland UK). But those type approval regs are
about what is required BEFORE SALE.

But as my email clearly stated, this is all about the USAGE rules,
aka road traffic law. Those are still a national (and for NI,
devolved) competence. Which is why we have the Road Traffic Act (and
NI have their own devolved version). This basically says what you are
allowed to ride and where, and with what conditions (registration,
driving licence, tax, helmet).

The EAPC regs in the rest of the UK exempt EAPCs from various of the
requirements (for legal use on the public highway) which would
otherwise apply to EAPCs as motorised vehicles. Absent those
exemptions, then the same requirements apply as for e.g. mopeds.

So type approval is not the issue here. The more pertinent question
is why the current EAPC road traffic regs apply for the UK RTA but
not for the devolved NI RTA.

I don't have the detailed 'official' legal reasoning, but I have been
assured by both the Department of Infrastructure in Northern Ireland
and a senior official at the DfT in London that their lawyers are
quite certain that the situation is as described - EAPC regs do not
apply in NI.

FWIW, my understanding (and I am not a constitutional lawyer!) is
that while the NI version of the RTA is "EAPC ready", with a clause
(6) similar to the UK RTA, exempting:

- an electrically assisted pedal cycle of such a class as may be so
prescribed,

from being treated as a motor vehicle, no such 'class' has yet been
"so prescribed" for NI's version of the RTA. The various statutory
instruments which do this for the UK RTA were not replicated for the
NI version when NI devolved and got its own RTA.

My impression is that the work now underway will essentially copy and
paste the UK regs in NI law, just changing just a few words so they
apply to the NI RTA. Then the rules should align.

Anyway, the official advice is quite clear, I think, and it seems
reasonable to treat their assessment of the legalities as definitive.

 

[flecc]

The more pertinent question is why the current EAPC road traffic regs apply for the UK RTA but not for the devolved NI RTA.

Thanks for the research and clarification David, points fully understood.

As for the above question, there was some confusion long ago about whether the 1983 EAPC regulations were UK or British, in the sense of Great Britain. No doubt that was due to the devolvement of transport. The position was made clearer when the 14 years lower age limit was introduced by including the measure in the 1988 Road Traffic Act, since RTAs are devolved. Legally that clearly separated N.I. pedelecs from the rest of the UK.

Later N.I. also adopted the 14 years limit, but not until their 1995 RTA.
.

 

[Danidl]

Thanks for the research and clarification David, points fully understood.

As for the above question, there was some confusion long ago about whether the 1983 EAPC regulations were UK or British, in the sense of Great Britain. No doubt that was due to the devolvement of transport. The position was made clearer when the 14 years lower age limit was introduced by including the measure in the 1988 Road Traffic Act, since RTAs are devolved. Legally that clearly separated N.I. pedelecs from the rest of the UK.

Later N.I. also adopted the 14 years limit, but not until their 1995 RTA.
.

... So NI is in a legal limbo. , A novel concept.

 

[Sinjin Smythe]

There is a bit of momentum building in the local media in Northern Ireland over the past few days regarding this law, being driven by the BBC'S Nolan Show who have run a feature on it this past 2 days and local parties such as the Greens and Alliance.

Nolan show facebook page sent their researcher to do the ebike competency test dressed in bike leathers, boots and a motorcycle helmet, photos are on their page LOL

https://audioboom.com/posts/6187182-nolan-show-s-vinnybelfast-takes-on-some-of-the-testing-you-need-to-have-for-an-e-bike-on-the-road

There is also a petition started by the greens, if you have time do do so please sign it and share.

https://www.change.org/p/police-service-of-northern-ireland-don-t-prosecute-anyone-for-riding-an-electric-bike



Thanks!

 

[TedG]

Sorry if I started another thread when one was already running on this subject. New member of this forum and all my other forums have different options etc.