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speculation: Does brexit make the ebike moped law null and void?

Discussion in 'Speed Pedelecs (S-Pedelecs), Non-EAPCs & overseas' started by flik9999, Feb 7, 2017.

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    flik9999

    flik9999 Finding my (electric) wheels

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    Hey so the speed pedelec law. Which limits to 15.5 mph and 250w is an EU law.

    With the uk leaving does this mean we can ride speed pecelecs when we leave. Until they bring in new regulations.

    On a side note im not sure how much cops even know about ebikes. I had a crash earlier on my legal ebike and the cop didnt ask any questions. If they did wouldnt they question me even if the kit was legal?
     
  2.  
    jwm

    jwm Finding my (electric) wheels

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    No, the UK will adopt all EU law as it stands then start repealing some of them over the following years/decades.

    John
     
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    flecc

    flecc Member

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    Either way S-pedelecs have to have separate legislation permitting them, and the DfT has been against accepting them.

    Having taken 15 years to get the current law on EAPCs (legal e-bikes) in place, the DfT will be in no hurry to change it again. Also, since that law is now adopted in 32 countries worldwide anf spreading, it's likely they'll see no reason to be different.
    .
     
    #3 flecc, Feb 7, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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    Rohloffboy

    Rohloffboy Pedelecer

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    Even before Brexit, I could not understand why the UK can not have parity with say, Germany or Holland regards "S" Pedelecs

    "S" Pedelecs would make more sense, for work commutes.
     
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    flecc

    flecc Member

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    There is a vague chance we could get them, but would they be wanted? Not only would they be banned from cyclepaths etc and forced to remain on the roads, but the DfT have already created a driving licence class for them, group Q. So a driving test, compulsory third party insurance, VED disc, registration and rear number plate, compulsory helmet wearing etc.
    .
     
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    Rohloffboy

    Rohloffboy Pedelecer

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    The "S" Pedelec Class in Germany, does require a number plate, albiet a miniature one, the designated "S" Pedelec helmets, at first glance look just the same as a regular bicycle helmet.

    Insurance yes, and if you are using the bike for commuting I don't see an issue with that.

    I often see Ebikes commuting into Manchester, and the riders look to be more in danger than the MAMIL who speed along on there Carbon wonders.

    The ability to be able to keep up with the traffic flow in city centres, would make the daily cycle commute that much safer.

    My Son 31 (bike tech) cycles into central Manchester each day, in fact he uses a bike that I built, Ti Framed, MTB running SRAM Spectro P7 igh, with 26" X 1.6" Slicks.

    His route to work is 7 miles, he could go via the canal path and trail, to keep of road, although that would double his journey to work time.

    Going along the main roads and bus/cycle lanes he flys past the odd ebiker, an "S" Pedelec would speed up his journey to work, so for him such an ebike would be ideal.

    I don't see keeping of the trails as an issue, as the "S" Pedelec would be used solely for commuting, just the same as my Son would not use his DH or BMX bikes for commuting.

    The law on "S" Pedelecs needs sorting for the UK, if it's good enough for the Germans and Dutch, then it's good enough for UK citizens as well.

    Even the Yanks, get to go at a legal 20mph on an ebike.
     
  7.  
    flecc

    flecc Member

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    The problem is that it's the DfT doing the sorting, meaning far more restriction than the Germans, Dutch, Swiss and possibly soon the French suffer with their S class pedelecs.

    As I remarked above, if we get them a suitable driving licence is now necessary in the UK, either the new group Q or the Moped group P (now known as group AM) or a motorcycle licence.

    No information yet on whether the group Q will require something like the CBT the other two wheeler classes require. But one thing is certain, the two wheeler driving licence requirement will be an imposition putting many off.
    .
     
    #7 flecc, Feb 8, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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    Rohloffboy

    Rohloffboy Pedelecer

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    Obviousley the DfT must be oblivious to the number of UK ebike riders that have de-restricted there Ebike's by using dongle's etc, not to mention the Bafang Ebike's which let you up the cut off to 45kmph.

    I would hope that the UK ebike industry is constantly lobbying the powers that be, for "S" Pedelec's to become legal in the UK, with only the minor of caveats as in Germany.

    All stand to benifit from such a change, so I don't see what the problem is, as there appears to be no negatives for having "S" Pedelecs.
     
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    flecc

    flecc Member

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    Far from it, the DfT are well aware of this forum and the illegal usage. They just pretend to ignore it.

    We definitely will not get the German conditions for S pedelecs. Our e-bike trade have done all the lobbying to get the S class and the introduction of the group Q licence is the newest and very recent response, showing the DfT thinking on the subject.

    Now we are leaving the EU our prospects get poorer, since the history of our e-bike law has always been less favourable than Europe's. Our law was 200 watts and 12 mph assist limit until as members we needed to raise both to align with EU law.
    .
     
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    flecc

    flecc Member

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    I'm answering this separately since there are real negatives, for example:

    A moped restricted to 45 kph (28mph) requires the rider to go through CBT and gain a group AM driving licence. They also have to wear a BS approved m/c crash helmet.

    The S class permits the same 45 kph (28mph). How can the legislators allow that without CBT, AM licence and m/c helmet and avoid protest from the moped users? They can't, and that's why the motorcycle industry argue against permitting any easement of pedelec law in the UK and oppose the S class and the use of throttles on e-bikes. The DfT have to listen to them too.
    .
     
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    Rohloffboy

    Rohloffboy Pedelecer

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    Easy, a moped is not pedal assist, well not in the same way as what an ebike is and has cough, no throttle.

    A 50cc moped I am sure has more power than say a 350watt ebike, as does an electric moped.

    I would say it is quite easy to differentiate between a "S" Pedlec and a Petrol or Electric moped.

    Again the German's have a completely seperate class for "S" Pedelecs to that of mopeds, so I don't see the problem.
     
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    flecc

    flecc Member

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    Whether there's pedals or not isn't relevant, 45 kph is 45 kph and the speed is the key factor affecting safety.

    The situation in Germany crept up on them as the S class evolved. Originally it was 250 watts and most of them only reached around 20 mph as they were simply the American market versions. As 9 and 10 speed derailleurs and the SRAM dual-drive were added, assist speeds rose to around 24/26 mph and there were calls for more power to enable that more easily. So then the power limit was raised to 500 watts.

    Don't misunderstand me, I'm not in any way against the S class, but I'm a realist and know the different attitudes of DfT legislators. They have always been firmly against any easement of any pedelec regulations. Not long ago it looked as though they might just consider the S class, but it's clear from that preparatory Q licence group that we would be far more restricted than the Germans.

    Underlying the attitudes is that the UK has by far the safest road accident record in the world and they want to keep it that way. It's no use quoting Germany, they have 4.3 road deaths per 100,000 inhabitants, the UK only has 2.9, so they aren't going to copy Germany.
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    #12 flecc, Feb 8, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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    Rohloffboy

    Rohloffboy Pedelecer

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    I guess the only way to get "S" Pedelecs legal in the U.K. is to have a referendum on the subject, as that seems to be the only way to get anything sorted in this country.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
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    electrickery

    electrickery Pedelecer

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    Somehow I think if we wouldn't allow it in Europe we wont be allowing it out of Europe. We are one of the most conservative , blinkered nations on earth, trying to hang on to the past rather than embrace the future, apart from maybe North Korea.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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    flik9999

    flik9999 Finding my (electric) wheels

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    Speaking of which are ebike mopeds worth it? Do you just need to get a cbt and register the bike?
     
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    flecc

    flecc Member

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    Unfortunately no, as motor vehicles they are subject to type approval and none of the excess speed/power e-bikes can meet the type approval requirements as supplied.

    They have to have tyres to motorcycle standards, brake light, other lights have to be fitted and to approved standards, horn, number plate bracket and some other alterations.

    In countries that permit it, the S class high speed pedelecs sit between the legal pedelecs and mopeds and escape full type approval, but that's not permitted in the UK.
    .
     
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    Charliefox

    Charliefox Finding my (electric) wheels

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    I can think of one that no one seems to have mentioned. Higher speed means a lot less battery range and need for more powerful brakes.Standard ebikes now have reasonable ranges with relatively cheap batteries. Go the "S" Pedelec route and you may save a little time but at considerable cost. Perhaps even the need for an MOT!
     
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    d8veh

    d8veh Pedelecer

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    I think that in the next few years, there will be a lot of pressure to make it easier to obtain and use light electric vehicles of whatever type. The change will come. It's just a question of when.
     
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    flecc

    flecc Member

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    There's lots of scope already, the quadricycles I mentioned earlier come in faster forms like the 50 mph plus Twizy, or its 45 kph (28 mph) version. The latter falls into the Microcar class which includes proper little light hatchbacks and can be driven by 16 year olds.

    Construction basics are a weight limit of 350 kilos and power limit of 4 kilowatts in the electric versions.

    We just need to ease our overly rigid laws in the UK. In France these Microcars are known as VSPs (Voiture sans permis) since they can be driven without any driving licence. Suggest that to the DfT and they'd have kittens!
    .
     

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