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Transport Poverty

Discussion in 'The Charging Post' started by eTim, Mar 8, 2012.

  1.  
    eTim

    eTim Just Joined

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    An interesting article, sparking thoughts of a Mad Max type future, what is interesting is the definition of '[insert type of poverty here] poverty', such as fuel poverty. So if the definition of '[insert type of poverty here] poverty' is 10% of income being spent on [insert type of poverty here], then I must be in beer/motorbike/gadget poverty :cool:

    Access Denied: Transport Poverty in Wales | Sustrans
  2.  
    flecc

    flecc Member

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    It's a daft measure as are most of these classifications of poverty. Using it probably puts most of the population in food poverty, since their total cost of all food and drink consumed will be well over 10% of income. The more someone spends on ample quantities of high quality food, the more they will be in food poverty, which is ridiculous.

    This sort of classification can only work on residual income, and that can only be known when there's a full specification of excluded essentials, like food, clothing, housing etc.

    The unanswered question posed in that article is whether all transport is an essential.

    However, it's not the real problem. The real problem is the poor economy of Wales and it's inability to afford all of it's residents adequate, well rewarded employment which would enable them to afford universal public or private transport and better living standards.
  3.  
    mike killay

    mike killay Pedelecer

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    One of the problems in rural Wales is the distances involved. 5 miles to get a loaf of bread, 15 miles to the pub and no public transport at all.
  4.  
    eTim

    eTim Just Joined

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    Is part of the solution, for people susceptible to 'transport poverty', to create communities that are either self sustaining in remote areas, through co-operation, or not to send people out into remote areas in the first place and keep them in the cities where adequate infrastructure already exists?

    Does our modern society allow for co-operation any longer? Is it really a transport issue, as Flecc point out is all transport essential?

    I think in our modern society, that unless communities become more co-operative and begin to help themselves then these issues will remain for rural areas.

    Maybe Sustrans should be appealing to the authorities to provide funding to educate rural populations in ways to be more co-operative to solve transport problems rather than relying on government to spend tax payers money on schemes that may or may not be used by the communities they are aimed at.

    There appears to be nothing in the Sustrans literature that relates to educating the people it is targeting, it all appears to rely on the authorities doing it all!?!?
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  5.  
    Blew it

    Blew it Pedelecer

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    Good ol' Sustrans

    Sustrans is one of many similar 'charities', all of whom are primarily employers, not providers. Ask anyone who has approached Sustrans with a suggested low-cost improvement to a junction to improve cyclists safety. Sustrans will always reply with a thousand reasons why it cannot be done.

    The blog entry below exposes Sustrans in a far more eloquent way than I could, it sums up my own view precisely.

    CLICK HERE
  6.  
    Blew it

    Blew it Pedelecer

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    In case you missed the link....

    This is the blog entry I meant to link too.

    CLICK HERE
  7.  
    indalo

    indalo Banned

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    Blimey!

    Indalo
  8.  
    flecc

    flecc Member

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    Large numbers of villages in England are in situations no different from Wales. For many years they've been losing their pubs, post offices, banks and village shops, so many have none of these and little or no public transport either.

    The residents of quite a few villages have banded together to re-establish their village shop which they either run themselves or subsidise a couple to run full time. In some isolated instances pubs have been saved or re-established in these ways too. Also by all or most using the same bank, that bank can provide a mobile bank visiting once a week, Nat West being a leader in doing that. Post Office provision remains a headache, but village shops can sell stamps and online postal services are available.

    So co-operation as you suggest Tim is an answer to many of these ills without the need to transport people. Ultimately in the longer term it's inevitable that we will all have our travelling curtailed anyway, so they can be the pioneers of a forthcoming lifestyle, especially now that broadband services are finally being extended to rural areas by various means.
  9.  
    eTim

    eTim Just Joined

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    Yes, I've seen the news reports where villagers have co-operated in this way. What strikes me though (and my info has come from media reports rather than verifiable stats) is that the people within the communities that do co-op appear to be in the middle classes rather than the lower/poverty classes which is where most charity efforts are directed.

    I don't want to start a class war here, but is the reason for this because the middle classes are more generally better educated, more affluent, more self-starters than the lower/poverty classes? Is the psychology of the co-op villagers such that they are better positioned to think and do, to help themselves out of certain situations, whereas the lower/poverty people lack the education/means/willpower to do this for themselves and therefore rely on the charities/state/the almighty to help them?
  10.  
    flecc

    flecc Member

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    The people in those villages are by no means all middle class or even highly educated, but they do have enough with those elements to be self-starters. There's also a strong element of local pride in most English villages which helps.

    Certainly the last sentence of your post is very true.

    Perhaps as a result of their 20th century experiences, I have noticed considerable negativity expressed in Wales, in both towns and villages. One thing that concerns me is the wholesale implementation of the Welsh language, presumably based on engendering pride. It may do that to an extent, but I think it also promotes a separatism which is unhelpful in our modern unified world where most are rushing into English language use to better themselves. The time spent learning Welsh in schools could be better spent, and unlike other language learning, it has no economic purpose or future employment advantage.
  11.  
    eTim

    eTim Just Joined

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    Isn't it strange, as a member of Joe Public, I'd always thought that SUSTRANS was a force for good, all it takes is one article with a couple of anomalies, raising reasonably innocent questions in one's mind, leading to others' contributions posted on the internet, to uncover another relatively corrupt national institution funded by tax payers and lottery money!

    Next.........!
  12.  
    mike killay

    mike killay Pedelecer

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    Have to correct you on the employment issue Flecc. Huge complaints are growing in Wales where only 20% speak Welsh, that too many public sector jobs now specify fluency in Welsh as a must. Unfortunately, Wales is ruled by nationalists whatever party they belong to.
  13.  
    flecc

    flecc Member

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    Yes, I did know that Mike, but that is a completely artificial contrivance, playing no part in the economic good of the nation. Quite the opposite in fact and why I voice my opposition to the policy.

    My comment was based on no other nation speaking Welsh, meaning no national income could be gained from speaking it. Like it or not, the future of our technical and globalised world lies in all speaking English, ultimately as the universal and only native tongue.
  14.  
    flecc

    flecc Member

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    Just been listening to a BBC radio 4 program on "Building the Big Society, part 1", in which very much working class people are involved or getting involved in community improvements. Some positive, some negative:

    i-player link
  15.  
    mike killay

    mike killay Pedelecer

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    Exactly my feelings, and I am a Welsh speaker. The TV channel S4C regularly gets less than 1,000 viewers but millions are poured in each year to keep it going. The whole situation is scandalous, is outright discrimination against non-speakers and yet apparently is completely legal. In some counties, all children will be forced to undergo Welsh medium education regardless of whether they can understand it.
    The MOD on its web site claimed that Welsh medium education damages children's prospects and so pays for private education if any employee is posted to Wales. Of course, the Welsh Government brought pressure to bear and the 'offending' message was removed!
  16.  
    flecc

    flecc Member

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    That is a dreadful situation Mike, so short sighted, nationalism verging on bigotry.

    If only they would wake up to the fact that teaching in English and learning one of the BRIC* languages instead of Welsh would not only result in a better education but future economic gain as well through importing work.

    *Brazil, Russia, India, China, the "future" economies.
  17.  
    eTim

    eTim Just Joined

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    That doesn't sound very believable on several points:

    1. Why would the MoD pay for private education costing the taxpayer £Tensofthousands extra when employees children are already funded for state schools? Would it be to encourage employees to volunteer to live in Wales.
    2. If it were true, then there would be a stampede of families volunteering for Wales to take advantage of free private schooling.
    3. Was this on their intranet or their public web pages, there are usually anti-discrimination controls etc in place to stop something like this being published?
    4. It couldn't be official policy.
    5. Maybe it was an offer to provide private extra lessons to make up for lost time learning Welsh, if/when parents complain that their children are forced to learn Welsh?
  18.  
    flecc

    flecc Member

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    It is true Tim. The MOD do pay private school fees under a scheme to avoid children constantly having to change schools as their parents move around. The MOD are currently cutting back on this scheme as part of current economies, but here are the details of that scheme:

    MOD private education grants

    If you scroll down on that link you'll see that the scheme can be used to avoid state schools enforcing Welsh language use. Unlike in other areas, the full costs are paid by the MOD. Personally I'm amused that it's a defence against the threat of the Welsh language.
    .
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2012
  19.  
    mike killay

    mike killay Pedelecer

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    It is perfectly legal in Wales to discriminate against non Welsh speakers.
    By the way, huge amounts of money are thrown at promoting and preserving the Welsh language.
    Guess who pays?
  20.  
    DJH

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    I can't believe what has been said on this thread. It talks of people living in villages as though they are another breed. I assure you we are no different from urban dwellers in our desires and aspirations. I have to travel 5 miles for a loaf of bread but you learn to plan your life better so that you get everything in one go once a week. To say that we need educating in co-operation is ridiculous. We have parish councils and through these bodies people forcibly express their opinions when things are not right. In 2004 the parish council here instigated a wireless broadband network (ther was only dial up)that was part funded by the government and is now about to link up wirelessly to a fibre gateway enabling residents of the dale to have 30 Mb up and down(at the moment we have 5Mb). The phone line, although improved over the last 8 years, still can't give more than about 2Mb. The one bus service we used to have on a Friday has now been stopped and the mobile library has ceased to operate, all in the last year. But people come forward and offer to help with bringing books or shopping from town for those that can't get out. In the last 18years we have built 15 low cost homes enabling local families to stay in the area because house prices are ridiculously high.
    So you see, to say that we need educating in cooperation and to imply that people living in town have a better overall view of what needs to be done is frankly beyond belief,we know what needs to done and we will fight to get it! We are not uneducated and educated, or working class and middle class we are ONE group of people living in a beautiful part of the country all working together for a fulfilling life.

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