What is THE most powerful, most torquey, front hub motor kit with....

[eTim]

...the most levels of assist and massively heavy battery for a great range for a 26" wheel? (whilst trying to keep it legal).

Which is it and where can I buy it ?

If you have been following my off-road bike thread, you will notice that I'm buying a Thorn Nomad Mk2, this is an off-road adventure/expedition touring bike that can take a massive 35-40Kg load in front and rear panniers, it's also built for comfort. Now whilst I intend to use this without power I really want to try a front hub motor on this bike also, weight is NOT a consideration (any more) .

 

[eddieo]

The Ezee motors are well known for being powerful, but this puts extra demands on the batteries I guess....Not sure of spec with the kit.

Wisper kit still the one to watch IMO as battery placement should be more like the BionX

If you dont mind me asking, what sort of money is the thorn? I have never seen or heard of them before.

 

[Alex728]

If you dont mind me asking, what sort of money is the thorn? I have never seen or heard of them before.

not cheap. Thorn are a well respected brand of specialist British touring cycles (linked to SJ cycles) and the cheapest one of that model is over £2000...

 

[NRG]

The Puma motors are reputed to be very good for power output and hill climbing ability....

 

[eddieo]

not cheap. Thorn are a well respected brand of specialist British touring cycles (linked to SJ cycles) and the cheapest one of that model is over £2000...

Well in that case personally I dont really see the point in the effort....... May as well buy a fully integrated Wisper 906 xc tourer with rock sold residuals and class leading support

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

Heinzmann will do

...the most levels of assist and massively heavy battery for a great range for a 26" wheel? (whilst trying to keep it legal).

Which is it and where can I buy it ?

If you have been following my off-road bike thread, you will notice that I'm buying a Thorn Nomad Mk2, this is an off-road adventure/expedition touring bike that can take a massive 35-40Kg load in front and rear panniers, it's also built for comfort. Now whilst I intend to use this without power I really want to try a front hub motor on this bike also, weight is NOT a consideration (any more) .

Hi eTim,

It is hard to recommend you a motor that will fit all your requirements. I would however recommend you a HEINZMANN hub motor and that is mainly due to following reasons.

Firstly. Heinzmann is probably the only one that will really help you out even if you add extra 50kg of luggage.

There is a fully legal 36V 250W version with max current of 33A. The max output power is massive 1188 Watts with max torque of 45Nm. That is more than twice as much as the Dapu hub motor or any Bafang. That will take probably up the steppest hill.

Secondly. This can be sold individually as a kit. You would only need your own battery for that which you could pre-order from i.e Ping battery. 33A max current means that you will need a large battery being capable to deliver such a high current.

Thirdly. Heinzmann maybe is not so developed technologically (its a brushed planetary geared motor) but of the best quality I have ever seen. We at H7 Engineering still use these for pedicabs (tricycle rickshaws) and we use only 24V versions and these are capable to carry 3 passangers plus rider + 120kg of pedicab = total is about half a tone. Even on pedicabs they can last for two years what means that on the normal electric bike you will not have prblems for many years. Even if something goes wrong you have UK based service centre with all spares available and great service from Dr. Andreas Schroer (Twike UK).

Lastly. IMHO I can not see any hub motor that is capable of doing such a heavy shifts as Heinzmann. Many really says they are old fashioned but power wise Heinzmann will deliver what you need.

If you would be inetersted I have a access to the Heinzmann tables so could tell what motor number is that. This data is not available on any website which is a shame.

Anyway have a thought about it and consider different options

best regards

Andrew

 

[andyh2]

Might be worth checking the Thorn fork will take a 10mm axle which is a common requirement for hub motors. Surly forks do, well the 1x1, Long Haul Trucker and Cross Check ones are 10mm. Otherwise you have to get the file out and whilst I'm sure many have done it I'm not sure how easy it is to do accurately across both droputs.

I only know this as I was thinking of putting my Tongxin on my Tricross and the carbon fork is 9mm so I was considering a Surly fork as replacement instead of messing about with the Tricross dropouts.

 

[eTim]

Hi eTim,

It is hard to recommend you a motor that will fit all your requirements. I would however recommend you a HEINZMANN hub motor and that is mainly due to following reasons.

Firstly. Heinzmann is probably the only one that will really help you out even if you add extra 50kg of luggage.

There is a fully legal 36V 250W version with max current of 33A. The max output power is massive 1188 Watts with max torque of 45Nm. That is more than twice as much as the Dapu hub motor or any Bafang. That will take probably up the steppest hill.

Secondly. This can be sold individually as a kit. You would only need your own battery for that which you could pre-order from i.e Ping battery. 33A max current means that you will need a large battery being capable to deliver such a high current.

Thirdly. Heinzmann maybe is not so developed technologically (its a brushed planetary geared motor) but of the best quality I have ever seen. We at H7 Engineering still use these for pedicabs (tricycle rickshaws) and we use only 24V versions and these are capable to carry 3 passangers plus rider + 120kg of pedicab = total is about half a tone. Even on pedicabs they can last for two years what means that on the normal electric bike you will not have prblems for many years. Even if something goes wrong you have UK based service centre with all spares available and great service from Dr. Andreas Schroer (Twike UK).

Lastly. IMHO I can not see any hub motor that is capable of doing such a heavy shifts as Heinzmann. Many really says they are old fashioned but power wise Heinzmann will deliver what you need.

If you would be inetersted I have a access to the Heinzmann tables so could tell what motor number is that. This data is not available on any website which is a shame.

Anyway have a thought about it and consider different options

best regards

Andrew

Andrew,

Good info, PM sent thanks.

Tim.

 

[eTim]

Well in that case personally I dont really see the point in the effort....... May as well buy a fully integrated Wisper 906 xc tourer with rock sold residuals and class leading support

Thorn produce a range of touring bikes, the Nomad Mk2 starts at £1,899 and is their most expensive bike (at base price) for this you get an expedition ready bike with the Rolhoff.

I considered the 906xc tourer, but I don't think it will last as long as a dedicated off-road machine with a higher component spec. The Nomad is bombproof with strong wheels, also residuals are very high and the support is second to none apparently and they provide a 100 day trial period whereby they will refund 100% of the cost of the bike if you are not happy with it. The bikes are also configurable and proven over many years of RTW use, so should be OK for my off-road pottering and multiday camping trips.

I don't know what the carrying capability of the Wisper is, it won't take front panniers anyway, I guess 10-15Kg might be OK. I will also have the ability to break mine in half for easy transportation and I have been to the shop to have mine fitted (not custom), which you can't get with the one size Wisper. Comfort and options is all with this bike.

 

[eTim]

Might be worth checking the Thorn fork will take a 10mm axle which is a common requirement for hub motors. Surly forks do, well the 1x1, Long Haul Trucker and Cross Check ones are 10mm. Otherwise you have to get the file out and whilst I'm sure many have done it I'm not sure how easy it is to do accurately across both droputs.

I only know this as I was thinking of putting my Tongxin on my Tricross and the carbon fork is 9mm so I was considering a Surly fork as replacement instead of messing about with the Tricross dropouts.

Thanks for the hint, the fork is a Thorn Nomad S+S 1 1/8 Inch Ahead Fork and I've specified a Shimano XT HB-M770 hub for it, the specs show a 10mm axle width so I should be good with the dropouts.

 

[eddieo]

Well in that case maybe Andrews recommendation is a good one...as long as a decent and reliable battery and controller can be sourced.

I would think The 906 is up to the job though..... it is well into its around the world trip, and seem more then capable of load lugging etc....

 

[eTim]

Well in that case maybe Andrews recommendation is a good one...as long as a decent and reliable battery and controller can be sourced.

I would think The 906 is up to the job though..... it is well into its around the world trip, and seem more then capable of load lugging etc....

Yes the Heinzmann looks like a good option.

It will be interesting to see how the 905se gets on in terms of items replaced/broken and consumables used, there is little information I can find on the spec of the bike and the components being used, maybe it's standard! 80,000KM is going to take it's toll. How are the batteries holding up, is the motor running trouble free, how many services have been carried out on the forks, how many chains has he gone through, cassettes, brake pads and discs, tyres etc etc? The downloadable equipment list just provides a list of equipment needed but doesn't go into specifics of the build.

The guy is pulling a trailer so the bike is loaded at the rear only, so how much weight is he carrying and how much is in the trailer? Also it's also not clear how much off-road is being done as most photos/video show him riding on the road which will not put as much strain on the bike as riding on unmade roads. What's his average speed?

But fair play, 80,000Km is a long way, I would love to be doing it.

 

[eddieo]

Don't you mean the 906? It is a standard bike I think? not sure....probably prepared a little more painstakingly.......

Its not like he has a support truck with him stuffed full of parts, he is out on his own I think. The 906 is built for reliability with the alfina hub, decent shocks etc.... Others have done similar trips unsupported, on normal bikes so you have to get it in perspective. But If he does it it will be a fantastic achievement and great advertising for Wisper and E Biking in general

getting a bit confused with your wish list, the Thorn is a tourer? is this what you intend to use for the serious off road stuff that you pictured previously or for load carrying touring?

 

[eTim]

Don't you mean the 906? It is a standard bike I think? not sure....probably prepared a little more painstakingly.......

I'm only going off what the website says (which is very little) EBWT - English » The bicycle: Wisper 905 se World Tourer how has the bike been modified to be a 906 ?

Its not like he has a support truck with him stuffed full of parts, he is out on his own I think. The 906 is built for reliability with the alfina hub, decent shocks etc.... Others have done similar trips unsupported, on normal bikes so you have to get it in perspective. But If he does it it will be a fantastic achievement and great advertising for Wisper and E Biking in general

There's very little info on the poor website for this trip, is he camping, is he credit card touring, how much support does he have, how does he charge his batteries, how much charge does the solar panel provide, what's his daily mileage, average speed, do the batteries run out, is he mainly on tarmac roads, I could go on... this is all the detail that we should be able to read about on a sponsored trip of this type. Many of the un-sponsored, personal trips are better blogged than this one, I find this blog short on detail and confusing (could just be me ).

I'm not knocking the achievement I just wish there was more info available.

getting a bit confused with your wish list, the Thorn is a tourer? is this what you intend to use for the serious off road stuff that you pictured previously or for load carrying touring?

It became obvious to me, during the off-road thread, that I needed a different kind of mountain bike for off-road, I already have the Marin and didn't really want to compromise it's capabilites with an electric kit, so I'll save that bike for single day up and down mountains. The Nomad is MTB capable, it will be slower, but will also haul loads over long distance with great reliability and should be very comfortable. The Nomad is classed as an off-road expedition bike, so it can carry multi-day loads of food water and camping gear over rough ground including mountain terrain and singletrack. Maybe the pictures were a bit too ambitious for any kind of electric mountain bike (maybe the Flyer would do it). It's been a good learning process.

 

[Boomer]

From Kinetick website

Heinzman motor

First pick your kit:

E-bike kit - front wheel, 5.2Ah Li-Ion battery (£1195)
E-bike kit - front wheel, 9.6Ah Li-Ion battery (£1395)
E-bike kit - rear wheel, 5.2Ah Li-Ion battery (£1195)
E-bike kit - rear wheel, 9.6Ah Li-Ion battery (£1395)

Pedelec kit - front wheel, 5.2Ah Li-Ion battery (£1295)
Pedelec kit - front wheel, 9.6Ah Li-Ion battery (£1495)
Pedelec kit - rear wheel, 5.2Ah Li-Ion battery (£1295)
Pedelec kit - rear wheel, 9.6Ah Li-Ion battery (£1495)

Pick your controller:

Digital controller - handlebar battery meter, Eco mode, better Pedelec
Analogue controller - no Eco mode or meter on handlebars (-£50)

Next pick your motor: (Not sure what to pick? See below...)

6022 motor - 43Nm, 25A, Nylon gears, 12% climbing, 14mph (26” wheel)
6622 motor - 50Nm, 28A, Steel gears, 15% climbing, 13mph (26” wheel)
1122 motor - 53Nm, 33A, Steel gears, 15% climbing, 15mph (26” wheel)
All above motors are road-legal, except the 1122 motor in a 28” wheel...

49xx motor - 36Nm, 33A, Nylon gears, 9% climbing, 21mph (26” wheel)
6430 motor - 26Nm, 33A, Nylon gears, 6% climbing, 26mph (26” wheel)
The above motors are not road legal, and are made for front wheel only...

41xx motor - 33Nm, 33A, Steel gears, 7% climbing, 23mph (26” wheel)
The above motor is not road legal, and is for rear wheel only...


Can´t recoment kinetich though if you email him, he do not reply the same mounth you email him, if at all. The kit I eventualy got from him is very good though, no complains on that

 

[eddieo]

My mistake...looks like you are right and its the 905

as for load carrying surely always better to tug then lug.

For touring, a trailer is a much better idea then heavily loaded front and rear panniers IMO


EDIT: It seems that is has the carbon frame though so I guess strictly not a production bike. the 906 was probably not ready when he set out on the trip.

from wisper site "Carbon Alloy frame (shown on the 905 World Tourer)"

 

[Andrew harvey]

Hi eTim,



There is a fully legal 36V 250W version with max current of 33A. The max output power is massive 1188 Watts with max torque of 45Nm. That is more than twice as much as the Dapu hub motor or any Bafang.

Andrew

Andrew, please be carefull when qouting power outputs.
I have to apologise now as I get a monstourous 'Bee in my Bonnet' about this

The power out put for an electric motor is given by,

CURRENT X BACK EMF.

The figure you qoute of 1188 watts is power consumption.

The Heinzmann motor is a DC motor, DC motors typically run at a maximum efficiency of around 70%. This occurs at about 80% of the no load speed.
The peak power output occurs below 80% of no load speed.

If you were to connect a 36 volt 100 amp Dc source direct to a typical hub motor, Bafang or Heinzman you would find that they can consume far higher currents than 33 amps. I've done this on an old Bafang (BF36SWX0126), peak current measured was 64 amps. This current peaks at 0 RPM.

The power output at 0 RPM is therefore 64A x 0V(back EMF) = 0 watts.
You see with have huge currents and no power output.
The current falls proportional to motor RPM at the motors no load speed it will be less than 1 amp on most motors.
In this unlimited current configuratrion the maximum power output occur at about half the no load speed. Given that the back EMF is proportional to RPM and reaches the supply voltage at no load speed, whilst the current falls in inverse proportion to the RPM, we can estimate the maximum power output as being;
Current at Zero RPM/2 * supply voltage/2
.ie. in this case 32A * 18 = 576 Watts.

This figure is far less than most claim for the peak output but is accurate for the Bafang motor at 36V, I have tested mine as accurately as I could.
If you fit a 35 A controller to a Bafang motor you will get this power output. Most 20 amp rated controllers do not limit the currant to 20 amp max, but average to 20 amps. My old Ananda and Crystalyte controllers, 20 amp rated, used to peak at over 40 amps.

Now the difficult bit most of the controllers we use do have an element of current limiting in them, this capps the current below the maximum the motor can draw, typically this prevents motor producing it's theoretical maximum power, it also shifts the point at which the motor produces maximum power to higher RPMs you can see this if you play with the simulator found here, ebikes.ca Hub Motor Simulator . Try altering the controller rating and you should see how this works.

The Ezee motor is of a similar format to Bafangs, peak power figures can reach 700 Watts for these motors but only with 40 amp controllers, to get these figures and avoid tottaliing your battery it's going to have to be huge, or a NiCad.

Having said all this if you can afford a Hienzmann motor you cann't go far wrong, one of the oldest, best made and most reliable motors you could find, they being DC have bushes which will need changing every couple of thousand miles, (donn't let that put you of). If you buy their own battery pack they are capable of supporting the currents needed, but donn't expect huge range, even a 20 amphour Ping would struggle to give huge range, that would of course depend on how it was used.

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

Hi Andrew,

Yes you are totally right with all what you said. I indeed fortgot to mention that the motors don't run on the 100% efficency so in case of heinzmann there will be around 85%. In that case the max output power will be lower by approx 15%. Enven though that is still a lot more than other motors that are available on the market.

I also agree that if you fit 30A controller to the Bafang or any other then you will also get such a high power. I'm not only sure if the Bafang and other can however run such a high currents. By looking at my ow Bafang and its wiring i suspect these could melt because they are quite thin.

The good thing about Heinzmann is that they are designed to work on these high currents in the region of 30A. The controller and all the wiring can handle it and thee is no issues with that.

Price wise they are very expensive and I have to say its a lot of money but quality is superb. Yes there might be a need of changing the brushes as well but that is not a problem if there is a UK based service.

Tim also mentioned that we does not care about the weight of the battery and these one can be quite large. If he gets a battery from Ping lets say 36V 20Ah then this one should be capable of delivery a current in teh region of 30A. In burst it should do even more as we need to take into account that the currents of 30A occur only at the sharp hills. The original battery from HM is not too good, is too small and that would not do a good job.

To sum up thanks Andrew for your carification and I'm glad you setpped in as it gives us highlight of what we can expect.

best regards

Andrew

P.S sorry guys if I make some spelling errors but I just got to type really quickly and have no time to read that through.

 

[eTim]

as for load carrying surely always better to tug then lug.

For touring, a trailer is a much better idea then heavily loaded front and rear panniers IMO

I guess this depends on the type of touring you will be doing and the amount you need to carry and how far/long from civilisation you are planning to be self supported. For road work, then a trailer is fine, but if you want to move up and down mountains off-road then you might find it harder work with than without. Transporting a bike and trailer by train, plane or taxi could prove problematic and costly. For heavy loads 50Kg then a trailer is ideal otherwise I think most people will try and keep the load under 35Kg.

From my past expeditions on foot I would expect that 20Kg would be enough with about a weeks food, water can be sucked up from streams, rivers and puddles etc. and 30Kg would be good for a round the world jaunt with a weeks food onboard, people do it on a lot less, but it really depends how comfortable you need/want to be.

My guess is that the Wisper is designed to carry not much more than 10-15Kg (might be even less because there is already approx 10Kg of battery/motor/controller on the bike) which would mean a trailer is a necessity for things like batteries (I believe he is carrying 3 x batteries, that is going to be bulky and heavy), chargers etc, if he is credit card touring then the overall weight will be lower than being totally self supported (although I expect he has a tent, stove, food, water, sleeping etc for those times for when he can't find accommodation). I also guess that the sponsors might not want to take a risk with loading the bike for reliability reasons, being the first time they have tried this with an ebike.

Another factor might be the handling of the bike under load, if it is not designed to carry heavy loads from the outset then adding weight may affect the handling enough to warrant putting the load in a trailer. If the bike design allows for the load to be carried at a low CofG and the geometry, frame material and components are chosen specifically for this capability, then there should be no problem.

It would be interesting to know the decision making process in the choices made for the Wisper trip, I think it is brilliant that an ebike could make an 80,000Km trip in the first place and it would be interesting from a technical detail POV to know how the bike and rider get on (this is sadly lacking from the blog).

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi eTim,

Seem to have missed this thread.

I am confident that an eZee kit would give the performance you are looking for, it has a powerful torquey motor with batteries and controller to cope reliably with the demands it makes.

It is not the cheapest or the most expensive kit, but is good value for money in comparison to any other kit.