Which brushless hub motors have freewheel?

cirrus18

Pedelecer
Apr 22, 2009
67
0
Cornwall. UK
I am looking for a brushless hub motor which has freewheel. I want minimum resistance when pedalling with the monitor off.
I know the Tongxin has one but this motor doesn't seem to be readily available.

I have been looking at various motors on the Internet but this feature doesn't seem to be talked about.
Perhaps you guys could kindly help with suggestions. Thank you.
 

daniel.weck

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 8, 2009
1,224
1
Hi !

The brushless geared Bafang Suzhou (8-Fun) motors are quite popular, as they are torquey, reliable, and although not as silent, light, narrow and free-wheeler as the Tongxin, pretty good nonetheless:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/4594-brompton-sparticle-latest-suzhou-bafang-motor-8-fun.html#post58241

These threads may also be of interest to you (read till the end for info about suppliers):

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/4589-e-bike-diy-conhis-motor-kits-china.html

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/4559-sourcing-tongxin-other-components-china-3.html?highlight=tongxin#post58277

Regards, Dan
 

AndyOfTheSouth

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2009
347
4
A very interesting question. I'd like to know the answer to this as well.

Just to make a start...

I've got a Bafang - I don't know what model, but it is sometimes branded as a Sparticle, I think - and that has a noticeable level of resistance. This is a real drawback and I the reason I think your question is a good one.

My impression of the Tongxin, after having spun a few wheels, is that it does actually have resistance, albeit modest.

In fact, it seemed to be no less than the motor on the Ezee Forza and Torq. These seem to have a low level of resistance.

One motor said to have proper freewheel is the Heinzmann.

But, as I say, it would be good to have an authoritative view on this.
 

winterdog

Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2009
168
0
I am looking for a brushless hub motor which has freewheel. I want minimum resistance when pedalling with the monitor off.
I know the Tongxin has one but this motor doesn't seem to be readily available.

I have been looking at various motors on the Internet but this feature doesn't seem to be talked about.
Perhaps you guys could kindly help with suggestions. Thank you.
the big thing for me was not witch motors had free wheels but how good was the free wheel

and tongxin did seam to be a fair bit in front with it's metal on metal roller action.
my wisper Bafang Suzhou is prety good
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,227
2,190
68
Sevenoaks Kent
Free Wheel

The Bafang motor we use has a very good free wheel as does the new Dapush motor we are using on the Alpino and XC models.

Poor free wheels are normally only found on older or cheaper bikes nowadays, this includes the cheaper / older Bafang motors.

All the best David
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,791
30,369
Nearly all of them have freewheels, but the question crops up because nearly all of them still have rolling resistance from the motor.

The reason is that the freewheel is between the motor and the orbital gears, but the orbital gears are still engaged with the toothed rack in the hub. Therefore when the hub turns, the orbital gears have to turn as well since the frame holding the orbital gears is attached to the stationary wheel spindle.

The only simple way that can be avoided with gears is if the circular toothed rack in the hub is freewheeled to the hub, enabling the hub to turn with the rack stationary, but that means the hub has to be quite large. Examples like this are the Powabyke and Heinzman motors, but they commonly have an asymmetrical drive with just one gearwheel driving the toothed ring.

The Tongxin nano motor has a roller drive which has very low friction, but that's not the only reason for it's negligible rolling resistance. It also has a very complex internal construction with the spindle in two separate parts which enables a better freewheel setup. The downside is that they've had a number of mechanical problems resulting from the complexity.

So why doesn't the usual Bafang type orbital geared motors have a freewheel between the orbital gear frame and the spindle, enabling the whole orbital assembly to turn with the hub? The simple reason is that it would have to be in the drive direction, leaving the motor spinning uselessly.

Everyone using the Bafang type orbital geared motor claims their motor has little or no rolling resistance, but that's simply not the case. The wheel and it's hubshell turns the anchored orbital gears, and those rolling gear teeth have drag. Lifting the front of the bike and spinning it by hand is not an adequate demonstration of low drag since it only achieves around 4 mph, and the drag rises with speed. At 15 mph or more it's very real.

There are some internally geared motors which have no freewheel at all, so the drag from the gears and motor is very high. Those are the regenerating motors in which the wheel needs to turn the motor to generate charge downhill. The only recent one was in the Giant new Twist 1 and 2 models which used the Sanyo motor. The high drag was unpopular and the regeneration was negligible, so Giant have now included a freewheel in the latest Freedom models and dropped the regeneration feature.
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daniel.weck

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 8, 2009
1,224
1
The only recent one was in the Giant new Twist 1 and 2 models which used the Sanyo motor. The high drag was unpopular and the regeneration was negligible, so Giant have now included a freewheel in the latest Freedom models and dropped the regeneration feature.
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I didn't know that. Thanks Master Flecc ! :)
 

cirrus18

Pedelecer
Apr 22, 2009
67
0
Cornwall. UK

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,791
30,369
These demonstrations of freewheel action seem fairly convincing. What do you think? perhaps they are contrived to look better than they actually are.
The first one is a demonstration of the freewheel driving the motor when the wheel is spun backwards, and not driving when the wheel is spun forwards, and there's no argument there. What it doesn't demonstrate is the drag without power at speed, since as I've already said above, spinning by hand isn't a test, the wheel speed too low.

The second one of the nano shows that the freewheeling does have some minor drag as someone else has already noted earlier, but it's without the mass of bike and rider pushing it along through kinetic energy, so once again, not a real world test. When riding, that mass easily overcomes the kind of very small friction drag that the nano has, making it freer running.

Everybody in here seems to be making the mistake of judging by hand spinning a wheel, and that's a waste of time, it's not a real test. The real test is cycling without power at normal speeds like 15 mph, and that soon shows up the differences and where drag really does exist.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,791
30,369
the big thing for me was not witch motors had free wheels but how good was the free wheel
In my first answer above I was only concerned with whether drag existed, not how much in differing motors. Drag has nothing to do with how good a freewheel is, whether pawl type or more commonly the ball and ramp type, they all have virtually no drag and disconnect the motor. But as I've noted before, they don't disconnect the orbital gears which are the source of the drag on internally geared motorised wheels.

The variations in drag of different motors has varying causes.

1) Larger hubs can often be lower drag since they can have larger diameter and narrower gears which create less drag.

2) Nylon gears are normally used for reasons of noise prevention, but they are quieter because nylon has more "give", and therefore less precision. In turn this means added drag.

3) The orbital gears are a drive reduction from the motor to the hub, and that's the easiest way, a small gear driving a large one. Unfortunately that means when running without the motor it's the opposite, the wheel is driving the gears, geared up, a large wheel (the toothed ring in the hub) driving small ones, so more drag. The amount of that drag is affected by the reduction ratio of the motor, typically from 5 to 8 times gear reduction. Of course on the overrun that means the extreme case of the 8 times reduction motor will have 60% more drag due to the orbital gears than the 5 times reduction one. Most have smaller ratio differences, but that still accounts for big variations in drag between motors.

4) Manufacturers do all they can to improve their motor's drag, so over time they can get better. Older Suzhou Bafang motors had thin orbital toothed rings, the latest one has a much thicker one. That will be both quieter and more efficient since it will be less subject to distortion under load, so in turn the rolling resistance will be lower.
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Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
Everybody in here seems to be making the mistake of judging by hand spinning a wheel, and that's a waste of time, it's not a real test. The real test is cycling without power at normal speeds like 15 mph, and that soon shows up the differences and where drag really does exist.
That certainly explains the strange 'stirring porridge' feeling when riding the Wisper without power, I think someone else on here coined that phrase and I can't think of a better description.
Fortunately I've almost never had to ride with a flat battery. :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,791
30,369
That certainly explains the strange 'stirring porridge' feeling when riding the Wisper without power, I think someone else on here coined that phrase and I can't think of a better description.
Fortunately I've almost never had to ride with a flat battery. :)
That's exactly it Mussels, the eZee models with the similar Bafang motors are exactly the same, the motor drag making the bike feel sluggish when pedalling without power. Swapping to a similar non-motorised bike straight after makes the difference blindingly clear.
.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,227
2,190
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Sevenoaks Kent
I have to admit!

I have to admit that I have only spun the wheel to see the effect of the gears in the motor.

I have asked Dick our manager in Shanghai to contact Bafang and Dapush for their views.

I will of course report back.

all the best David
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,791
30,369
I have to admit that I have only spun the wheel to see the effect of the gears in the motor.

I have asked Dick our manager in Shanghai to contact Bafang and Dapush for their views.

I will of course report back.

all the best David
I can already guess their answer. :D

Best way is to slip out the motorised wheel after a short test ride on a flat stretch, then pop an ordinary bike wheel in, geared if a rear wheel, and repeat that ride. That shows the difference, leaving not a shadow of doubt.
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AndyOfTheSouth

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2009
347
4
Given the shortage of freewheeling motors, isn't odd that Heinzmann seems not to have any champions, at least on this forum? :confused: Surely it has a real advantage. Yes, it's expensive, but so are others. It is heavy, well, most of the competition are hardly lightweights. Some of its versions are noisy, but not all are. Am I missing something?!?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,791
30,369
Given the shortage of freewheeling motors, isn't odd that Heinzmann seems not to have any champions, at least on this forum? :confused: Surely it has a real advantage. Yes, it's expensive, but so are others. It is heavy, well, most of the competition are hardly lightweights. Some of its versions are noisy, but not all are. Am I missing something?!?
There's no shortage of freewheeling motors Andy, almost all are freewheel as I mentioned above. :confused:. I take it you must mean those which have the freewheel at the outer orbital drive, so isolating the gears.

As for the Heinzman, it has many disadvantages and is from a past age in many ways. It's large, very heavy, it has a brushed motor which means more maintenance, the motor drive cog is a single assymetrical one so not balanced, it's fairly noisy partly as a result, it's current consumption is not very economical, and to cap it all, it's extremely expensive.

It does do the job, but being very well made just doesn't make up for all that.

I can't agree on your comparisons, about 6 kilos for the hub is heavy and others weigh typically 2.5 to 3.5 kilos. They don't match the Heinzmann prices by a big margin either, and at cruising speed the Heinzmann is still fairly noisy even in the plastic gear version, while Bafang and the like at cruising speed are generally quieter.
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AndyOfTheSouth

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2009
347
4
Hi Flecc - all I mean is that when there's no power, there's no porridge. As I understood it (and I write from ignorance rather than knowledge), the Heinzmann turns freely in this sense. Is this correct?
 
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Caph

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 29, 2008
440
11
Nottingham, UK
I more or less panic bought an Alien Ocean gent's special several weeks ago when my Galileo broke. It's great value for money but there is no freewheel to speak of, in fact I can only achieve 25mph downhill and the motor is screaming at me when I do.

The Galileo on the other hand has as good a freewheel on the front hub motor as it does on the standard rear wheel. I just assumed all hub motors were as good as this but obviously I'm wrong. I could lift the front wheel, turn the throttle up to full and watch the speedo hit 15mph then if I cut the power it would keep running and running and running and running and running ... you get the idea. If I do the same thing on the Alien it slows down quite quickly as though I've got a brake block rubbing slightly. I could hit 37mph downhill on the Galileo too! Unfortunately I don't know what motor is used in the Galileo, I could try and find out though.
 

AndyOfTheSouth

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2009
347
4
Hi Caph - very interesting post. Yes, it would be interesting to know the name of the motor.

Hi Flecc - one point of detail, the motor weight of the Heinzmann is quoted as 3.5 kgs, the same as the eZee.