Legal ebike?

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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So I take it that its best to get a bike now before they clamp down on the maufactors . What next MOT's and riding tests
Not really, the "grandfather rights" only apply to what is legal now, insuring them against changes in the law. One such for example is, if like the EU, we change to pedelec only with throttle control banned, existing throttle controlled legal e-bikes will continue to be legal in use. Currently illegal e-bikes will remain illegal.

Riding tests and MOTs are not in question, harmonisation with the EU will leave legal e-bikes exempted from all such measures.
 

hoppy

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May 25, 2010
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Quite simply because they've got away with for enough years to create a situation that is thought to be beyond correction.

Essentially the strict 200 watt limit that originally existed in the UK made e-bikes virtually useless, the added power only cancelling the added weight. So after over a decade of that manufacturers started to creep up the power, that first noticeable from about 1999. It's no coincidence that e-bikes started to become more popular in the UK from then on.

Confusion increased when the EU introduced the 2002/EC/24 type approval law for two wheeled motor vehicles that had some exclusions, one being that pedelecs having 250 watts watts maximum assist power with a maximum assist speed of 25 kph and weight under 40 kilos were exempt from motor vehicle type approval. That was mandatory of all member states with a deadline for introduction, and that was written into UK law on 10th November 2003. Accompanying that was an instruction that member states had to remove all conflicting national legislation, and that was where the UK fell down, that was not done.

Of course that wasn't a law making 250 watt e-bikes legal in the UK, though it looked like it, so from then manufacturers and agents increasingly openly promoted their e-bikes as being 250 watts, mistakenly or maybe conveniently thinking it acceptable.

However, the DfT had long recognised that with the EU having control of transport policy thoughout the union, parity of pedelec law was inevitable, and so they regularly promised it "within a couple of years or so". As ever, such minor matters always get lost under the pressure of what governments consider more urgent matters, so it never happened. The current promise is that the revision of the legislation will come into force in 2016, but since that's obviously just a year of convenience being after the next election, take it with a pinch of salt.

With e-bikes gradually becoming more common in some parts, it was inevitable that sooner or later they would come into conflict with the law, and that happened in one particular case when a traffic officer doggedly pursued that matter of the 250 watt rated power when the law only allowed 200 watts. BEBA got involved with me behind the scenes helping on the variety of all aspects of UK e-bike laws (there are many more than I've mentioned here), and the police force involved found themselves being apparently blocked from action by some of those measures. That force therefore took the matter to the DfT who, faced with the opposing arguments, finally realised that something had to be done.

That something was a meeting at which the representations from a consultation of interested parties were discussed and in recognition of the large number of 250 watt rated e-bikes on the road, the DfT agreed a waiver for them, here's the relevant extracts:
............................................................................................

Summary of Government response to consultation

2.The Department for Transport has considered the responses to this consultation and supports recommendations to harmonise power limits (from 200 Watts to 250 Watts) with similar provisions in place across Europe. This will provide consumers with access to a wider range of electrically assisted cycles.

Extracts from intentions:

The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

"Grandfather rights" will apply to all bikes sold before the new regulations come into force. So any changes will not be retrospective.
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As you can see, that does not give an open door to any power as some say through their readings of EN15194, since that has no force in the UK at present. The only legal method of power rating for e-bikes in the UK at present is specified in BS1727 from 1987.

Note, no laws have been changed yet, we are still legally bound by all the 1980s UK e-bike laws, so liberal interpretations are dangerous.
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Thank you, flecc, that's very helpful. The question remaining is, if the UK 200 watts is a maximum,what is the definition of the EU 250 watts? Can it include the BPM 250 watts for example?
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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The current EU law uses EN15194 as it's arbiter of what is legal. That has two specified methods for determining the power, the choice of which to use being optional. One of them gives considerable flexibility, enabling tailoring of the current handling to give much more than 250 watts actual continuous maximum power.

I don't agree with those who believe that any power is legal under EN15194.

However there are some provisions for manufacturers to issue statements about power levels in some circumstances, which amount to a fudge giving more flexibility in practice.

I think the important thing in both legislatures is to be reasonable in interpretation. Too extreme interpretations could lead to serious consequences in the event of a fatal accident involving a seriously over-powered e-bike, something Trex has warned of previously.
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hoppy

Member
May 25, 2010
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The current EU law uses EN15194 as it's arbiter of what is legal. That has two specified methods for determining the power, the choice of which to use being optional. One of them gives considerable flexibility, enabling tailoring of the current handling to give much more than 250 watts actual continuous maximum power.

I don't agree with those who believe that any power is legal under EN15194.

However there are some provisions for manufacturers to issue statements about power levels in some circumstances, which amount to a fudge giving more flexibility in practice.

I think the important thing in both legislatures is to be reasonable in interpretation. Too extreme interpretations could lead to serious consequences in the event of a fatal accident involving a seriously over-powered e-bike, something Trex has warned of previously.
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Thanks for your contributions. My conclusion, correct me if I'm wrong,is that there are no strictly UK legal ebikes because they'd be useless at a true 200 watts. But the Government through the DfT permits the use of 250 watt bikes as defined by EN15194 which has a flexible definition that allows certification of much more powerful motors. So that we are allowed to use them as EAPC's and insure them as such.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Roughly true Hoppy, except you have said the DfT permission for 250 watts is defined by EN15194. That is not the case, the DfT have not defined the 250 watts rating in that statement, and as I've said, in UK law only BS1727 defines the power rating method. That does not have the flexibility of EN15194, so you can see that we have a very different situation.

It's important to stick to exactly what is, rather than adding interpretations that are not recognised in law. I know of no UK law that recognises EN15194 at present.

Government departments, like lawyers, are very careful to avoid committing themselves to absolutes. Have a look again at the DfT statements I posted and you'll see that the DfT have not committed to supporting 250 watts. They haven't even said they support harmonisation with the EU's 250 watts, all they've said is that they support recommendations for harmonisation which is not at all the same thing, since it leaves open rejection of the recommendations.

Equally they've only said they don't intend to prosecute 250 watts instances, therefore giving no opinion on the matter of legality.

In essence, the DfT are leaving us to have the legal risks of flexibility, being careful to exclude themselves.
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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the power race does not affect only smaller brands.
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/haibike-unite-with-yamaha-to-bring-a-whole-new-ebike-range-to-europe.18375/
it was reported that the maximum torque of the new Yamaha CD is 70NM-80NM. Many dealers suggest that motor is a game changer. I wish they think twice before saying that.
The power of this motor is similar to the BPM but the danger is it's deployed via the chain and that's S-pedelec specs. You only need to buy a dongle to hit s-pedelec speed.
 

hoppy

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May 25, 2010
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Roughly true Hoppy, except you have said the DfT permission for 250 watts is defined by EN15194. That is not the case, the DfT have not defined the 250 watts rating in that statement, and as I've said, in UK law only BS1727 defines the power rating method. That does not have the flexibility of EN15194, so you can see that we have a very different situation.

It's important to stick to exactly what is, rather than adding interpretations that are not recognised in law. I know of no UK law that recognises EN15194 at present.

Government departments, like lawyers, are very careful to avoid committing themselves to absolutes. Have a look again at the DfT statements I posted and you'll see that the DfT have not committed to supporting 250 watts. They haven't even said they support harmonisation with the EU's 250 watts, all they've said is that they support recommendations for harmonisation which is not at all the same thing, since it leaves open rejection of the recommendations.

Equally they've only said they don't intend to prosecute 250 watts instances, therefore giving no opinion on the matter of legality.

In essence, the DfT are leaving us to have the legal risks of flexibility, being careful to exclude themselves.
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Thanks for taking such trouble over this,flecc. It would be really helpful if you put in writing what you suggest is the best way forward.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Thanks for taking such trouble over this,flecc. It would be really helpful if you put in writing what you suggest is the best way forward.
It's impossible to give an absolutely foolproof way, but in reality the chance of anyone acting sensibly being prosecuted is so negligible that we don't need to worry. As shown in a current thread, cwah has been stopped by someone who either was or was not a police officer, but I doubt any of us have thought his actions to be especially sensible in creating a small wheel folder with kilowatts of power and near 30 mph capability.

Buying and using commercial e-bikes and kits from well established UK based companies will obviously be the safest course, but imported kits from regularly used sources sold and preferably marked as 250 watts should also be just as safe. Carrying out modifications of those products such as using higher voltage batteries and more capable controllers naturally introduces more risk, but that is still largely academic if the end product still appears to perform like a legal e-bike.

The legal position is too complex for police officers or prosecutors to want to get involved, so in essence applying common sense is all that is necessary when buying, creating and using an e-bike.

Hopefully the DfT will eventually get round to completing our legal changes. We know that this will bring a harmonisation with EU law, but possibly we hope with the addition of throttle control permitted, following the extensive representations in favour of that measure. Unlike some I don't think that will permit any amount of power, and we only have to look at e-bikes designed in Europe since EN15194 to see that their power is not out of step with what was available before. The greater powers that have appeared in hub motors like the BPM and the new Panasonic seem to be coming from the Orient, not the home of EN15194.
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D8ve

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2013
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I think that this and Fleccs previous post should be summarised and made into a sticky so everyone can read and agree a sensible position.
Is might reduce some of the pointless arguments.
If D8veh,s points about compliance with BSA not CE being uk standard could just about set the ground rules.
Kudos to both
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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, and we only have to look at e-bikes designed in Europe since EN15194 to see that their power is not out of step with what was available before. The greater powers that have appeared in hub motors like the BPM and the new Panasonic seem to be coming from the Orient, not the home of EN15194.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say there, but I've got a feeling that I don't agree with it.

When the first Bosch crank-drive came out, it was a clear step up in power from nearly everything else that was about at the time. Then came Kalkhoff impulse, a whole host of German/Swiss direct drives and BH Emotion with various hub-motors.

We have today the above-mentioned systems plus Ezee, various bikes with 250w BPM/CST, Panasonic hub-motor, plus a load of new stuff on the market that all have about the same power, which is a step change from the weedy 26v Panasonic and 250w Chinese and other hub-motors of 5 years ago. The Bosch, Kakhoff and BH Emotion are all European brands.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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But we had the even higher power eZee motor setups previously, plus a wide choice of high powered German Heinzmanns, both at power levels easily up to and even beyond today's. The Currie Electrodrive earlier versions were far higher powered, even at one time with 900 watts. Even the humble Powabykes had gross maximum of 700 watts which accounted for the way they climbed with their very high weight. Also there were the Yamaha crank drive bikes which have later become today's Tonaros, and I've no need to mention their capabilities. So it simply isn't true that the Bosch circa 500 watts maximum was a major step up, it was in reality nothing special. The lack of many previous high powered crank units to compare it with was simply due to crank drive having fallen out of favour by 2006, leaving little to compare with five years ago other than the Japanese law restricted Panasonic.

The larger range of all power options today is mainly due to the very much larger market throughout Europe now than that of five years ago, not any gains in power. In by far the largest of all the markets outside of China, the Netherland's e-bikes bought today are actually mostly quite weedy.
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Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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Mention of the foregoing says 'when trading standards get involved' it's not a case of when,they have already visited a retailer who openly stated that his bikes are 350 watt and 28 mph. Trading standards didn't seem all that interested in the fact that these bikes are being openly sold in the UK and clearly by testimonials being used on UK roads and cycle tracks. There only concern seemed to be an advertising standards issue that the bikes had to be described as requiring moped registration not that they were being used without such registration. In other words it seemed from the attitude of Trading Standards that selling the bikes was ok ,as long as customers were told that they had to get them registered-to my knowledge nobody has bothered to do that.
That subject has been flogged to death and I think that customers still buy these S class bikes and have the attitude that they will take the risk. In all honesty the risk of getting nabbed is probably pretty low as long as you don't run into something or more critically someone!
KudosDave
 

Kudoscycles

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But we had the even higher power eZee motor setups previously, plus a wide choice of high powered German Heinzmanns, both at power levels easily up to and even beyond today's. The Currie Electrodrive earlier versions were far higher powered, even at one time with 900 watts. Even the humble Powabykes had gross maximum of 700 watts which accounted for the way they climbed with their very high weight. Also there were the Yamaha crank drive bikes which have later become today's Tonaros, and I've no need to mention their capabilities. So it simply isn't true that the Bosch circa 500 watts maximum was a major step up, it was in reality nothing special. The lack of many previous high powered crank units to compare it with was simply due to crank drive having fallen out of favour by 2006, leaving little to compare with five years ago other than the Japanese law restricted Panasonic.

The larger range of all power options today is mainly due to the very much larger market throughout Europe now than that of five years ago, not any gains in power. In by far the largest of all the markets outside of China, the Netherland's e-bikes bought today are actually mostly quite weedy.
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Really to support what Flecc is saying that the majority of e bikes sold in Holland,even now,are pretty lowly powered,it seems that Germany and more so Switzerland are the countries that want higher power and their governments have been happy to provide what the punter wants!!!!
Our government seems to have a couldn't care less attitude,they have had 11 years to sign up to EN 15194,so who knows whether they ever would have S class in this country.
KudosDave
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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The DfT attitude to any mention of more power or speed is always very negative Dave, but I haven't completely lost hope of one day having an S class variant. The fact that these are governed by vehicle-like rules on number plates, insurance etc which member governments can freely add to could appeal to our legislation mad governments.

But getting more legalised power or speed on bureaucracy free e-bikes is never going to happen, either here or in the EU.
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
I haven't completely lost hope of one day having an S class variant. The fact that these are governed by vehicle-like rules on number plates, insurance etc which member governments can freely add to could appeal to our legislation mad governments.

But getting more legalised power or speed on bureaucracy free e-bikes is never going to happen, either here or in the EU.
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I'm not a fan of those higher-powered EAPCs as they are strictly road bikes, being prohibited in many other places where regular cyclists may venture. In any case, some of the latest, ostensibly legal, machinery available to the public, is capable of powering up the steepest hills and many are now light enough to be ridden above the cut-off speed for even the most unfit. That causes me to question the motives of those who might be inclined to buy S-class bikes.

From the government's point of view, there's no doubt that a whole new source of revenue would be opened up, were they persuaded that S-class bikes should be permitted. I'm thinking of additional tax at first purchase, VAT on the obligatory addenda such machines require, including insurance.

They could even insist on some form of annual test and compliance check, creating work for some 'approved' cycle repair shops. Motorists fork out quite a bit of money, some of it filling treasury coffers, just to ensure their 3-years old cars and older remain roadworthy and in compliance with relevant legislation. The opportunity to hit some e-cyclists with similar tax-grabs would be too much for any government to ignore, I fear.

I am really grateful that existing legislation provides for me to use a powered machine without hindrance in the same way as non-assisted cyclists. This obsession some have with additional power and speed is my biggest worry that my freedom may be restricted or may cost money in the future.

Tom
 

Kudoscycles

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Tom....don't give them any ideas.....actually I think it's quite good we seem to be below the governments radar,maybe the couldn't care less attitude is not a bad thing.
Although I was once a campaigner against the S class bikes I am more worried about these e-scooters and e-mopeds that are starting to become widely sold on e-bay,some of those bikes are 1600 watts...it seems frightening that according to the adverts they can be ridden by drunken 14 year olds without fear of prosecution....it's only a matter of time that some accident occurs and then we will all be tarred with the same brush and then our freedom will be legislated against.
KudosDave
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I am really grateful that existing legislation provides for me to use a powered machine without hindrance in the same way as non-assisted cyclists. This obsession some have with additional power and speed is my biggest worry that my freedom may be restricted or may cost money in the future.

Tom
Don't worry Tom, this situation will remain unchanged. Transport policy is the domain of the EU as repeatedly laid down in that institution's agreed measures. The market for bureaucracy free pedelecs is so huge in northern mainland Europe that it now cannot be changed without causing a revolution, so our much smaller market benefits from the mandatory rules.

The EU exemption for pedelecs from the sort of bureaucratic blight that affects motor vehicles is written onto UK law in 2002/EC/24, and the only possible UK alteration to that had to be by application to the European Commission between 9th May 2003 and 10th November 2003. It's too late now.
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shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
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What a sorry state of affairs.

I wonder if the UK electric bicycle market will ever match the Dutch market.

They have influenced the EU law making by being active during the open consultation period to secure a law acceptable to their population and can now enjoy the experience of using their bicycles without any worries- how nice must that be.

Likewise for the other countries who support the active use of ‘S’ class vehicles.

It appears that the current and previous administration have had no incentive from the population or cycling trade bodies of the UK to join in, in fact the opposite seems to have occurred with traditional cyclist and motor cycle trade bodies been against the introduction of another form of cycling which should shoe horn itself neatly between the two disciplines.

Unfortunately BEBA and the rise in UK EPAC popularity arrived too late on the scene to voice our National concerns but if industry wants to do catch up then it needs a joint effort by both dealers and enthusiasts and find its own voice.

I think this is the only way we can get the problem off the back burner and into lime light otherwise it will just stay simmering on the stove with the myriad of other lost causes.
 

JohnCade

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2014
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What a sorry state of affairs.

I wonder if the UK electric bicycle market will ever match the Dutch market.

They have influenced the EU law making by being active during the open consultation period to secure a law acceptable to their population and can now enjoy the experience of using their bicycles without any worries- how nice must that be.

Likewise for the other countries who support the active use of ‘S’ class vehicles.

It appears that the current and previous administration have had no incentive from the population or cycling trade bodies of the UK to join in, in fact the opposite seems to have occurred with traditional cyclist and motor cycle trade bodies been against the introduction of another form of cycling which should shoe horn itself neatly between the two disciplines.

Unfortunately BEBA and the rise in UK EPAC popularity arrived too late on the scene to voice our National concerns but if industry wants to do catch up then it needs a joint effort by both dealers and enthusiasts and find its own voice.

I think this is the only way we can get the problem off the back burner and into lime light otherwise it will just stay simmering on the stove with the myriad of other lost causes.
Very flat, Holland.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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Does it matter? It seems to be that people have a wide range of bikes with different powers and speeds, and they can ride whichever one they want without let or hindrance provided that they don't make a nuisance of themselves. Why would you want it any other way? Personally, I hope it stays like that for the next 10 years.