Another London cyclist killed

[flecc]

Yesterday the latest of five London cyclists was killed so far this year, again going under a truck. And once again it was a woman, four out of the five being females. I keep posting about this year after year in the hope that something will change, since women dominate these deaths.

I've highlighted the reasons many times, that they are more law abiding than male cyclist who are more likely to pull ahead across stop lines or jump lights to get ahead. However it really is baffling that many of them persist in riding in the danger position in the blind left-hand area of trucks after so many warnings in forums, newspapers and on TV.

At this rate there are likely to be 18 or 19 deaths of this type this year, one of the highest for many years, despite all the changes to trucks and the publicity on the issue.
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[jonathan75]

I was in Blackfriars Crown Court on Tuesday to watch proceedings, and unintentionally ended up hearing HH Worsley ruling on admissibility of prior convictions concerning a tipper-lorry driver who had jumped a red light and killed a cyclist. This case http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/lorry-driver-banned-from-the-roads-five-times-admits-jumping-red-light-and-killing-cyclist-10164566.html

I guess this will sound appallingly snobby, and I apologise if it's wrong of me, but it's so often tipper drivers and I can't help but think it's something to do with the character of the people who sometimes drive these things. Most people will be familiar with being tailgated and overtaken by tipper lorries driving above the speed limit in built up areas. I've worked (briefly) in construction and there are men there who really are not nice people, who live in an abandoned, selfish, disordered, angry way, who do not fit into ordinary everyday society at all. Perhaps sometimes you get the job because you're family (and I'm not questioning people of any nationality in particular here) rather than your qualities as a decent person. Like a thug gang. Perhaps some people like that might not be able to sustain employment in regular logistics but would in construction. If they kill people accidentally on the building site with their equipment we don't hear about it. But when that equipment is speeding around the public spaces between building sites we do hear about it.

 

[flecc]

The flaw in your contention that the drivers might be to blame is the difference in gender deaths Jonathan. Driver fault would not cause that.

I've covered this in depth in previous posts. In the great majority of these deaths the driver has not been held to blame in any way and many are not even charged. As I've shown before, it takes less than a second for a cyclist riding at the typical London cyclist speed of 20 mph to come from behind a tailboard into the danger zone near the front of the nearside of a truck. A driver cannot be looking into the mirrors every second since he has to look into where he is turning as well as other places. I say this as a person with extensive truck driving experience well aware of the difficulties.

The reasons why construction trucks feature so much in these accidents are well known. Firstly they are one of the most common types on London's roads due to the constant construction going on. Secondly they are high cab types restricting the nearside mirrors view. Thirdly they often have no side "fence" guards between the front and rear wheel sets due to the need to cope with very uneven site ground, making it easier for a cyclist to fall in front of the rear wheels.

Cyclists have to share in the responsibility, they should ride defensively and the outcomes show that men are doing that quite successfully. This is mainly a female problem and it will not be solved by looking for other causes.
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[oldtom]

[/quote]I guess this will sound appallingly snobby, and I apologise if it's wrong of me, but it's so often tipper drivers and I can't help but think it's something to do with the character of the people who sometimes drive these things. [/quote]

Very harsh, very harsh indeed on all those decent tipper drivers who do a fine job piloting their trucks around the country. If stupid people decide they are going to ride their bicycles close to large vehicles, then it's hardly the fault of the vehicle driver if the cyclist is crushed to death. It's not like they haven't been warned!

Tom

 

[JohnCade]

]

I was in Blackfriars Crown Court on Tuesday to watch proceedings, and unintentionally ended up hearing HH Worsley ruling on admissibility of prior convictions concerning a tipper-lorry driver who had jumped a red light and killed a cyclist. This case http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/lorry-driver-banned-from-the-roads-five-times-admits-jumping-red-light-and-killing-cyclist-10164566.html

I guess this will sound appallingly snobby, and I apologise if it's wrong of me, but it's so often tipper drivers and I can't help but think it's something to do with the character of the people who sometimes drive these things. Most people will be familiar with being tailgated and overtaken by tipper lorries driving above the speed limit in built up areas. I've worked (briefly) in construction and there are men there who really are not nice people, who live in an abandoned, selfish, disordered, angry way, who do not fit into ordinary everyday society at all. Perhaps sometimes you get the job because you're family (and I'm not questioning people of any nationality in particular here) rather than your qualities as a decent person. Like a thug gang. Perhaps some people like that might not be able to sustain employment in regular logistics but would in construction. If they kill people accidentally on the building site with their equipment we don't hear about it. But when that equipment is speeding around the public spaces between building sites we do hear about it.

Hell Drivers.

 

[RobF]

To be fair to our law student member, the guy in the case at Blackfriars Crown is a total knacker.

At least three convictions for driving while disqualified, two for drink driving, and at the time of the crash he had no licence or insurance.

He also - on his own account - admitted running a red light to keep up with his tipper driver truck mate in front.

 

[2Lazy]

Am I right in thinking we're talking about cyclists moving up the nearside of the vehicle i.e. between the kerb and the vehicle? If so I struggle to comprehend why anyone would do that. If the vehicle turns left you've nowhere to go and the likelihood is you'll be involved in a very serious collision. I have to admit I'm not sure what the correct protocol is but in that situation I would hang back behind the HGV and position myself in the centre of the lane so the driver of the vehicle behind me can clearly see where I am.

If the vehicle speeds past the cyclist and immediately turns left that's another matter. Only thing the cyclist can do to protect themselves from that is to ride assertively in the centre of the lane. But I can understand why cyclists are reluctant to do that when drivers often tailgate, honk their horn and shout abusive language etc.

 

[flecc]

To be fair to our law student member, the guy in the case at Blackfriars Crown is a total knacker.

I agree Rob, but I did not want the purpose of my thread post, to help in stopping these female deaths, from being diverted into something irrelevant to that purpose.
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[flecc]

Am I right in thinking we're talking about cyclists moving up the offside of the vehicle i.e. between the kerb and the vehicle?

Yes that is specifically the problem in almost every one of these accidents. A cyclist getting into the position of being under the truck mirror view area or partially ahead of the cab. Both are blind spots to the driver of a high cab truck.
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[RobF]

Am I right in thinking we're talking about cyclists moving up the offside of the vehicle.

Usually termed nearside or passenger side, but yes, the bit by the kerb.

Another problem is that in London there's often no escape due to pedestrian railings on the cyclist's left hand side.

 

[cwah]

Once I was in trafalgar square riding my bike straight...

After the red light I started first but a car soon ran faster than me.... then started to turn left!!

I was thinking WTF, then turn also left to avoid collision, but the car kept turning left and had to do the same.

He acted like he didn't see me and I have to jump to pedestrian pavement to save my life.

Another time I litterally had to crash against a pedestrian waiting for the light because of car danger....

 

[2Lazy]

Yes that is specifically the problem in almost every one of these accidents. A cyclist getting into the position of being under the truck mirror view area or partially ahead of the cab. Both are blind spots to the driver of a high cab truck.
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With more people than ever cycling on the road I think what's needed is better education and training. Before I cycled for the first time in London I took the precaution of getting some basic training. It amounted to little more than a bloke visiting me and us going out on a ride around Clapham but he did give me some useful pointers i.e. don't ride in the gutter, position yourself in the centre of the lane etc. That was back in 2007 and things may have changed but I had to search hard to get even that basic training, which if I remember correctly was from a guy who just placed a classified ad in Loot. Maybe things have moved on since then but I was shocked to discover that there wasn't a government approved cycle training course, something akin to an adult version of the cycling proficiency test we all did at primary school, or a 'CBT' for cyclists.

 

[2Lazy]

Usually termed nearside or passenger side, but yes, the bit by the kerb.

Another problem is that in London there's often no escape due to pedestrian railings on the cyclist's left hand side.

Sorry, yes nearside is what I meant, will edit original post to avoid confusion.

 

[JohnCade]

I agree Rob, but I did not want the purpose of my thread post, to help in stopping these female deaths, from being diverted into something irrelevant to that purpose.
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I’m not sure it was irrelevant since it reflects on his character and driving record and might indicate that he was more culpable for the accident than the woman victim. We have no way of knowing if she rode up the inside of his stopped truck or was waiting to turn when the truck drove up and stopped beside her. Then after a few moments the driver completely forgot seeing her there or maybe was such a piis poor driver - or was distracted - that he didn’t notice her in the first place. Once she was in his blind spot it was too late. I would make sure I stopped well forward on a junction like that but I concede that some riders are less keen on going over a line. There might be pedestrian lights there too which can make it more difficult.

We don’t really know what happened and whether she was there before the truck and who was culpable so we should not automatically blame the cyclist. If the driver was to blame he would almost certainly not admit it, and the police would have no way of taking it further without witnesses; and witnesses to RTAs in London melt away like the spring snow.


This software is really **** poor. Pis is a perfectly good English word and should not be blocked by some stupid American designed programme and have to be deliberately misspelt. We have a more robust attitude to language than them. Cupid stunts.

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[SteveRuss]

I
I guess this will sound appallingly snobby, and I apologise if it's wrong of me, but it's so often tipper drivers and I can't help but think it's something to do with the character of the people who sometimes drive these things. Most people will be familiar with being tailgated and overtaken by tipper lorries driving above the speed limit in built up areas.

If the local tipper truck company is anything to go by, then I would say they are nearly as bad as Bristol's taxi drivers.. and that's saying something. There is a go-kart mentality to their driving for some reason and they scare the living daylights out of me.

 

[JohnCade]

If the local tipper truck company is anything to go by, then I would say they are nearly as bad as Bristol's taxi drivers.. and that's saying something. There is a go-kart mentality to their driving for some reason and they scare the living daylights out of me.

Someone should have told Eddie Cochran. Ace cab did for him.

 

[SteveRuss]

Someone should have told Eddie Cochran. Ace cab did for him.

Heh. Yeah I forgot about that.. I think it was near Bristol?

I didn't wish to tar all drivers of these vehicles with the same brush but there is a high level of careless driving being exhibited from Bristol taxis in general. I say that from extensive experience of being inside them as a passenger as well as from watching them from other vehicles. My girlfriend always complains about them trying to knock her off her bike. I've started video'ing all my rides these days so i'll post an example at some stage.

 

[JohnCade]

Between Bath and Chippenham on the A 4 late at night after he missed the London train after a gig at the Colston Hall and took an Ace Taxis cab. The driver was going far too fast and lost control on a bend.

 

[RobF]

I’m not sure it was irrelevant since it reflects on his character and driving record and might indicate that he was more culpable for the accident than the woman victim. We have no way of knowing if she rode up the inside of his stopped truck or was waiting to turn when the truck drove up and stopped beside her. Then after a few moments the driver completely forgot seeing her there or maybe was such a piis poor driver - or was distracted - that he didn’t notice her in the first place. Once she was in his blind spot it was too late. I would make sure I stopped well forward on a junction like that but I concede that some riders are less keen on going over a line. There might be pedestrian lights there too which can make it more difficult.

We don’t really know what happened and whether she was there before the truck and who was culpable so we should not automatically blame the cyclist. If the driver was to blame he would almost certainly not admit it, and the police would have no way of taking it further without witnesses; and witnesses to RTAs in London melt away like the spring snow.


This software is really **** poor. Pis is a perfectly good English word and should not be blocked by some stupid American designed programme and have to be deliberately misspelt. We have a more robust attitude to language than them. Cupid stunts.

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The cyclist in this case was male, although the circumstances are worth a quick look.

Tipper driver pulled out of side road - Proctor Street - running a red light to turn right into High Holborn.

Tipper driver stops in middle of junction, presumably due to traffic.

Two cyclists pass along High Holborn from his left to his right, passing the front nearside corner of his lorry.

He pulls forward just as a third cyclist attempted to go through the same gap.

Dreadful driving from an all round dreadful fellow.

But the cyclist must have known the tipper was only going to move one way.

Maybe the cyclist didn't want to stop in the junction, but it seems to me steering clear of tippers - when you can - is the best policy.

If the ruddy thing's always few metres away, it cannot kill you.

 

[flecc]

I’m not sure it was irrelevant since it reflects on his character and driving record and might indicate that he was more culpable for the accident than the woman victim

Not relevant John, because you've chosen to make this singular about that court case. I did not, I started my reply to Jonathan by saying drivers. Like Jonathan's your reply was irrelevant to the subject, that of the excessive proportion of female deaths, once again in the plural.

Until cyclists stop diverting that subject into irrelevances and start facing the facts, women cyclists will continue to die unnecessarily. This has been known for a long time and the BBC published a long article on it in 2007 and then again in 2009 at a point when 7 out of 8 killed were women.

These deaths are predominantly of commuters and it's a fact that women are the minority of cycling commuters in London, a little over a fifth of them being likely from various sources. But they dominate the London cycling deaths, being at the kindest estimate 16 times more likely to be killed than men.

That sad fact desperately needs action and attention from women.

To try to put the blame on truck drivers is ridiculous. If anything the types described will be more likely to be paying more attention to these predominantly young women than to men, so any gender bias should result in a disproportionately high number of male deaths. In addition the behaviour of some of the described elements on the roads is in the interests of meeting the demands of their job. The very last thing they want is to be stuck at the side of the road for a day while the police investigate the death they've been involved in, so their driving is calculated accordingly

We know the problem, that of cycling into the blind zone on the nearside of trucks, particularly at left turn junctions. Although always a lower proportion than womans, men's proportion of these accidents was higher at one time, but they responded and now rarely figure. This year to date they formed just one death among their four-fifths of the cyclists, women four deaths among their one fifth of the cyclists.

That is the problem, not the trucks and buses in the collisions, not their drivers, not the roads, not the lack of cycling facilities, since none of those are gender biased to pick out women cyclists to kill.
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