Brexit, for once some facts.

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
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brexiters don't believe parliament is on their side.
The only way they can get it is by blackmailing Mrs May.
No need for blackmail or dirty tricks such as claiming the referendum was flawed. BREXIT has a democracy on its side, which is more than can be said for the remainers.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
At 1 of Article 50,Treaty of Lisbon....
' any member state may decide to withdraw from the union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
Leavers are placing a lot of faith in Theresa May's use of the Royal prerogative to take us out of the EU,but the Royal prerogative has rarely tried to exercise that power and in both cases statute has exceeded prerogative...
The case of proclamations,1610... Was decided that the King by his proclamation cannot change any part of the common law or statute.
The case of fire brigades Union,1995... It would be surprising if prerogative powers could be used to frustrate the will of parliament expressed in a statute.
If a judge sought prior cases,which from my expensive experience judges often do,then the 2 cases where the Royal prerogative was exposed and competed with a statute ,the statute was deemed the higher power.
If May tries to use the Royal Prerogative it will certainly be subject to judicial review,this allows the actions of ministers,including the PM,to be challenged in the courts on the basis that the PM did not have the power to act in such a way or that the action was unreasonable or the power was exercised in a procedural unfair way,whatever the outcome of the judicial review it will also be subject to appeal.
This case ,because it questions the constitutional arrangements of the U.K.,will undoubtably be heard ultimately by our Supreme Court,don't hold your breath this could run for many years( up to 2020,hehe)
KudosDave
I could type an equally long reply, but I'll just cut to the last three words

.......but no cigar.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
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www.kudoscycles.com
No need for blackmail or dirty tricks such as claiming the referendum was flawed. BREXIT has a democracy on its side, which is more than can be said for the remainers.
The referendum wasn't flawed,it's only its power is misunderstood.
No it doesn't ,the power to decide whether we stay or leave lies with our parliament,that is true democracy.
Over the next few months the courts will become increasingly involved in what will become an increasingly complicated constitutional argument.
KudosDave
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
I see the IMF are predicting that the UK economy will grow faster than that of Germany and France over the next two years.

Oh dear you remainers.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
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Holes in my feet Flud? none at all.
Explain in your infinite wisdom the circumstances where May should actually give the order to deploy Trident?
There simply isn't such a scenario is there?
Which means that damn thing is actually simply making us into a target for any enemy who has nuclear weapons.
We can never use them, and everyone is as aware of that just as they were during the last war, with Boltulinum Toxins, Anthrax and Gas.
Only an utter fool believes that this sort of Bluff kids anybody.
If Russia decides to invade us, they will , we will be defeated,as our conventional army is minute, and we will not dare to press the Trident fire button as that would be the last thing we do.
For once think about the consequences.
Who do you think you are kidding?
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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I'm delighted to hear her make this statement. This restores the stalemate with any would be aggressor knowing that an attack by them will result in their total annihilation.

Would Germany have invaded Poland if the Polish had been equipped with a nuclear arsenal? No they would not and millions of lives would have been saved.
A nonsense scenario and you know it.
If only Poland had had nuclear weapons, perhaps Germany would not have invaded.
If both countries had them they would still have invaded, since the existing WMD's Anthrax, Nerve Gas etc were not employed by either side for fear of reprisal, nuclear weapons would not have been employed either.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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"
Amber Rudd and Boris Johnson signal that aim to get net migration to below 100,000 has been abandoned"
Daily Telegraph today. 20/07/2016
That will go down well with many of the Brexit camp , rather in the nature of a lead balloon.

"From the Daily Mail"
Egypt crisis? What Egypt crisis! Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson appears to confuse the African state with Turkey during meeting with US secretary of state John Kerry "
No wonder he fronted the Brexit Campaign, he can plead terminal confusion.
And from the "grate" man himself in the Guardian
"Johnson, holding the press conference in the Foreign Office, said: “We can spend an awfully long time going over lots of stuff that I’ve written over the last 30 years … all of which in my view have been taken out of context, through what alchemy I do not know – somehow misconstrued that it would really take me too long to engage in a full global itinerary of apology to all concerned.”
And this was the liar who warped the Brexit campaign.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
As a fan of democracy, flawed though it may be, I believe we should have formally implemented the Article 50 measure by now. Until we do, the current uncertainty will continue and government, business and consumers both here and abroad will bury their heads in the sand and simply fail to focus on the important issues which lie ahead.

As a socialist, I believe it is utter stupidity to withdraw from the EU but I must respect the democratic view.

Nonetheless, I am curious to know, given the post-EU referendum discussions in the popular media and the reported numbers who would like to re-run the ballot because they now feel they were not properly informed before the well-advertised exercise, would the 'Leave' camp be happy to do it all again, knowing there is a very good chance that the position would be reversed?

If that came to pass, what then?

Meanwhile, I await the announcement that we will be deploying a task force or sending troops in a peacekeeping role somewhere we shouldn't be poking our noses in - it's only a question of time before this fascist government pays back its sponsors in the arms industry by ordering the military to let off some of their state-of-the-art big squibs so we need to buy some more.

As an optimist......no, cancel that one!

Tom
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
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No need for blackmail or dirty tricks such as claiming the referendum was flawed. BREXIT has a democracy on its side, which is more than can be said for the remainers.
Does it indeed, when so many lies have been told for a generation to sour the public attitude to the EU?
Strange form your democracy takes, but lets go for article 50 and put your money where your mouth is! (unfortunately mine too)
Why is there a delay, could it be our Government is incapable of handling the job?
Or are they up to something you won't like?
 
Mar 9, 2016
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Holes in my feet Flud? none at all.
Explain in your infinite wisdom the circumstances where May should actually give the order to deploy Trident?
There simply isn't such a scenario is there?
Which means that damn thing is actually simply making us into a target for any enemy who has nuclear weapons.
We can never use them, and everyone is as aware of that just as they were during the last war, with Boltulinum Toxins, Anthrax and Gas.
Only an utter fool believes that this sort of Bluff kids anybody.
If Russia decides to invade us, they will , we will be defeated,as our conventional army is minute, and we will not dare to press the Trident fire button as that would be the last thing we do.
For once think about the consequences.
Who do you think you are kidding?
The idea is to never have to give command to use it, having ability to do so prevents you having to.
Your view is idealistic but fatally flawed.
Its a foolish stance. You talk of growing up in war torn Hull. Without our nuclear capability you,d be speaking Russian, if you were lucky.There is no way any uk leader would be elected with a unilateral nuclear arms stoppage. Multilateral perhaps, but that is pie in sky...
May said what she had to.
Yes its a MAD world but unfortunately getting worse.
 
The idea is to never have to give command to use it, having ability to do so prevents you having to.
Your view is idealistic but fatally flawed.
Its a foolish stance. You talk of growing up in war torn Hull. Without our nuclear capability you,d be speaking Russian, if you were lucky.There is no way any uk leader would be elected with a unilateral nuclear arms stoppage. Multilateral perhaps, but that is pie in sky...
May said what she had to.
Yes its a MAD world but unfortunately getting worse.
Ok, so can you explain why Russia hasn't invaded, Poland? Norway? or pretty much every other country in the world? if the only thing stopping them coming here is our Nuclear capability? I think you'll find that capability is from an old world and no longer needed.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
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79
The idea is to never have to give command to use it, having ability to do so prevents you having to.
Your view is idealistic but fatally flawed.
Its a foolish stance. You talk of growing up in war torn Hull. Without our nuclear capability you,d be speaking Russian. There is no way any uk leader would be elected with a unilateral nuclear arms stoppage. Multilateral perhaps, but that is pie in sky...
May said what she had to.
The usual Rot passed off as wisdom, we don't speak Russian today because the Russians never intended to invade us as we were ALLIES.
And ask yourself an honest question.
What the heck has anyone to gain from invading these islands?
Name something of such value that justifies the effort, expense and casualties.
We don't have a damn thing they haven't got already, and would represent a no profit enterprise, trouble with no visible reward
Why would anyone want to attack us with Nuclear Weapons?
Now here there is a clear reason;
Because we possess the same weapons and pose a real threat
For no good reason other than the nonsense idea that we are an important nation, and we have to have a big stick.
And yet we are leaving the EU because we can't make them do exactly what we want them to, and like a Tortoise pull our necks back into our shell?
Some important nation we! too weak to be able to operate in the relatively small arena of the EU and influence them to do as we wish.

We have just voted ourselves a far smaller and less significant place in the world, and wasted a whole generation's worth of progress at a stroke.
And we want a bigger stick than the other kids at the bottom of the heap like ourselves have?
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
No need for blackmail or dirty tricks such as claiming the referendum was flawed. BREXIT has a democracy on its side, which is more than can be said for the remainers.
Prime Minister, here is the gun. You must shoot our economy with it.
There are currently at least 8 cases in the High Courts against triggering article 50.
the only way that article 50 can be triggered without parliament is by a new tory leader. Mrs May does not have to do this herself.
The best outcome is for Mrs May dragging the process on until the next election with a package that may suit everyone: Norway. The economy will do fine like it is as long as article 50 is not triggered. The exporters will get the advantage of the cheap Pound, the importers should suffer a bit of low sales. Brexiters can keep the fig leaf over retaining 'controls'. If she wins, she'll get the mandate. If she loses, then the next labour or liblab government will cancel it altogether.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
Prime Minister, here is the gun.
And that gun is a starting gun to signal that the UK economy is about to sprint ahead that of France and Germany. Just like the IMF has said a post Brexit uk will do.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
A nonsense scenario and you know it.
If only Poland had had nuclear weapons, perhaps Germany would not have invaded.
If both countries had them they would still have invaded, since the existing WMD's Anthrax, Nerve Gas etc were not employed by either side for fear of reprisal, nuclear weapons would not have been employed either.
Nucs are another ball game. They stopped the Japs dead in their tracks and brought an almost immediate end to the fighting, starvation and torture of uk and allied soldiers. They knew another bucket of nuclear sunshine was on the way if they persisted. If the Japs had access to nuclear weapons, then the USA wouldn't have dared to detonated a couple on Jap soil for fear of what would be heading back their way.

Those early chemical & biological WMDs weren't such a deterrent at the start of the war, not like the stuff made at Aldermaston today. If Poland was in possession of such a defence, the Germans would have gone elsewhere, somewhere that didn't.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
32,608
79
The usual Rot passed off as wisdom, we don't speak Russian today because the Russians never intended to invade us as we were ALLIES.
And ask yourself an honest question.
What the heck has anyone to gain from invading these islands?
Name something of such value that justifies the effort, expense and casualties.
We don't have a damn thing they haven't got already, and would represent a no profit enterprise, trouble with no visible reward
Why would anyone want to attack us with Nuclear Weapons?
Now here there is a clear reason;
Because we possess the same weapons and pose a real threat
For no good reason other than the nonsense idea that we are an important nation, and we have to have a big stick.
And yet we are leaving the EU because we can't make them do exactly what we want them to, and like a Tortoise pull our necks back into our shell?
Some important nation we! too weak to be able to operate in the relatively small arena of the EU and influence them to do as we wish.

We have just voted ourselves a far smaller and less significant place in the world, and wasted a whole generation's worth of progress at a stroke.
And we want a bigger stick than the other kids at the bottom of the heap like ourselves have?
Just a reminder. Nuclear weapons could not prevent the great powers being defeated in Vietnam and Afghanistan could they?
Expensive and dangerous toys!
The idea is to never have to give command to use it, having ability to do so prevents you having to.
Your view is idealistic but fatally flawed.
Its a foolish stance. You talk of growing up in war torn Hull. Without our nuclear capability you,d be speaking Russian, if you were lucky.There is no way any uk leader would be elected with a unilateral nuclear arms stoppage. Multilateral perhaps, but that is pie in sky...
May said what she had to.
Yes its a MAD world but unfortunately getting worse.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
And that gun is a starting gun to signal that the UK economy is about to sprint ahead that of France and Germany. Just like the IMF has said a post Brexit uk will do.
Sure, the economy will rebound strongly at some stage after brexit. Mrs May has to shoot it in the foot first though.

apparently, remain means remain for Scotland at today's PMQ.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
Sure, the economy will rebound strongly at some stage after brexit. Mrs May has to shoot it in the foot first though.

apparently, remain means remain for Scotland at today's PMQ.
Yes, they're load of w@nkers down at the old IMF. Oh, hang on a minute, weren't they being taken seriously just a few days ago when they were predicting doom?

I think I'm getting the hang of this now. If an organisation predicts doom, then they are a serious and credible institution. If they are optimistic, then we must disregard them. This rule applies even if a once credible doom monger reviews the situation and then predicts a brighter future. So then that organisation's status will change from credible to untrustworthy.

Got it. Just like there is more to democracy than merely a majority vote.
 

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