Brexit, for once some facts.

oyster

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Idiot. You'd kill off the whole economy. You obviously know nothing about human motivation.
What motivation is there for those at the bottom of the structure with no prospect of any inheritance whatsoever? Some, to be sure, will see ways in which they might find some degree of financial improvement and well-being. Many will not. Even if they work extremely hard.
 

50Hertz

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His new party is funded by "small donations"
In the Sun
"
BREX APPEAL New pro-Brexit party backed by Nigel Farage racks up £1m in funds and has 200 candidates
The former Ukip boss has pledged support for the Brexit Party founded by Catherine Blaiklock
A NEW "Brexit Party" backed by Nigel Farage has raised £1million in three weeks, it was claimed today.


The party's founder said she has 200 potential candidates lined up - and threatened to challenge the Tories if they sell out Brexit.
Former City trader Catherine Blaiklock has insisted she is serious about turning the Brexit Party into a major political force.

The party was registered three weeks ago, and received public backing from ex-Ukip boss Mr Farage in The Sun.


Ms Blaiklock told the Telegraph she has already received "seven-figure pledges" from supporter.

She said backers include top lawyers and successful business figures who have never previously dabbled in politics.

Small donations, oh sure!
Take your marks, get set, let the smearing begin.

It’s so childish.

I don’t like Farage and I’ve said why previously. Instead of this tiresome, “he’s worse than we are” politics, let’s hear what positive things people / political parties have plans for.

As things stand, I’m so hacked off with the bickering, the incompetence and the blurring of activity with action that I might just vote for The Brexit Party. Brexit will be an economic disaster, but it might be a fun spectator sport watching everything fall apart. More fun than the endless child like point scoring and incompetence driven inactivity. I think we are pretty much shafted anyway, so why prolong the agony?
 
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Woosh

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True. But that has that got to do with the mass of the ascent stage?
to slow down at the descent, the descent engine has to provide enough thrust to counteract gravity on the moon and reduce forward speed.
wikipedia gave these figures:
thrust: 45kN (4.5 earth tons), the throttle can control burn between 10%-60%.
To ascent, part of the lunar landing platform is jettisoned, the ascent engine only produces 16kN and that's enough to take off and fly back to the CSM.
 
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Woosh

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let’s hear what positive things people / political parties have plans for.
basic marketing rules. Let's face it, if you know your bike won't last 5 years, would you buy it? (except perhaps Mike63, he does 4,000-5,000 miles a year).

no party is going to win if they completely flesh out their ideas.
 
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flecc

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Despite having been a beneficiary of inheritance, not enough to hit any tax thresholds, I do think that inheritance is a bad thing. Perhaps inheritance tax should be 100% and no trusts or opt outs. Why should the offspring of somebody have a much better financial start in life than some other citizen?. It would allow other taxes to be reduced.
I've long agreed on that desirability Danidl, but it does create big problems in an economy, particularly a lack of large savings and subsequent investment. People would avoid leaving anything, being on a permanent spending spree. They'd want to cash in their homes, but no-one would want to buy them for that purpose since they in turn would lose everything at death. And there'd be no rented homes.

I think it could only work if there was complex of exempt things, such as property owned for renting out and investment in manufacturing and a variety of other desirables.
.
 
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Danidl

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Absolute nonsense. You'd kill off the whole economy. You obviously know nothing about human motivation.
Did you edit the following... " Idiot. You'd kill off the whole economy. You obviously know nothing about human motivation."..as appears in in some later posting
You may choose to call me idealistic, but whatever else,I am not an idiot.
It is extremely simplistic to assume that the current economic model is the only one which works, and the only one which generates wealth and comfort
 
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Zlatan

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Did you edit the following... " Idiot. You'd kill off the whole economy. You obviously know nothing about human motivation."..as appears in in some later posting
You may choose to call me idealistic, but whatever else,I am not an idiot.
It is extremely simplistic to assume that the current economic model is the only one which works, and the only one which generates wealth and comfort
But changing IHT laws would be a tiny tiny step in overall redistribution of wealth. Changing it without changing rest could destroy far more than ut creates. Our IHT is already a punishing tax which as it stands actually affects middle earners far more than the type you would wish to rebalance. The top earners have ways of moving, transferring and redistributing wealth before death. As it stands good planning can totally avoid its affects anyway... (if you trust people, family, friends) Give your wealth away and stay alive 7 years... You, ve cracked it... Folk never do though...
Solicitors love IHT, they make more than families do... Last time I was involved they charged £365(plus vat) per hour, with by minute charging to cover phone calls. They are the ones who should be targetted. Folk rarely sort probate out without help from one even though its not hard to complete. (government help line is fantastic but under used)
Only fair thing to do is scrap it. As it is very wealthy or clever avoid it. Rest see their family's wealth nearly halved. (after paying solicitor and tax)
 
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vfr400

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to slow down at the descent, the descent engine has to provide enough thrust to counteract gravity on the moon and reduce forward speed.
wikipedia gave these figures:
thrust: 45kN (4.5 earth tons), the throttle can control burn between 10%-60%.
To ascent, part of the lunar landing platform is jettisoned, the ascent engine only produces 16kN and that's enough to take off and fly back to the CSM.
Lets assume that's correct. KN are the same on the Earth as the Moon, since force is independent of gravity. 16KN is about the weight of a family car. Can you now imagine the blast you'd need out of the bottom of your car to make it hover 10ft in the air? How much sand or dust do you think would remain underneath it?
 

Woosh

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Newton is the same in interstellar space as on earth. To ascent, you need to overcome the moon's gravity plus enough leftover for acceleration and control. Don't forget that the throttle only lets you contro between 10% and 60%, that imposes a fair amount of saftety margin in designing the ascent engine. Let's do some calculation:
mass of the lunar module at take off: 4700kgs
gravity constant on the moon's surface: 1.62 m/s²
minimum thrust: 4700kg x 1.62 m/s² = 7614 kgm/s²
1 Newton = kgm/s²
The minimum required thrust for lift off is 7614N.
The ascent engine needs to be fired at 100% at the start, producing 16,000 Newtons, that leaves: 16,000N - 7614N = 8,386N for reaching optimal ascent speed.
The returning lunar module has an initial acceleration of: 8,386N/4700kg = 1.78m/s² at lift off.
Of course, the engine will have to be rotated around to slow down before docking.
 
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Zlatan

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Lets assume that's correct. KN are the same on the Earth as the Moon, since force is independent of gravity. 16KN is about the weight of a family car. Can you now imagine the blast you'd need out of the bottom of your car to make it hover 10ft in the air? How much sand or dust do you think would remain underneath it?
I. m not saying one way or other about this, but if it were faked (which it could have been) dont you think a couple of tons of sand, dust, or whatever couldnt have been deposited around craft.
My suspicions were aroused more around the death of the astronauts during testing. (capsule burst into flames) Google that incident but I do think information surrounding the entire episode is now controlled. Many documents I read a few years ago about the moon landings/space programme (or is it program???) can no longer be accessed.
Bart Sigler has gone quiet, either he has come to his senses or he's frightened. (Buz Aldrin punched him)

What people do is belittle certain lines of thought by shouting "conspiracy theory". Its as though only nutters hold any belief in these. Reality is authorities do cover things up. I, m convinced American Govt was involved in JFK killing. Calling it a conspiracy theory is deflection.

https://www.gaia.com/article/the-apollo-1-conspiracy-did-nasa-covered-up-gus-grissoms-death

Very interesting reading. A NASA safety engineer in process of writing critical report killed himself, and his family, trying to outrun a train.. A week after asronauts died. mmmm Coincidence? No such thing.

Gus Grissom foretold his own death and both his wife and son believe it was carried out by NASA.

Will we ever know truth.
 
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flecc

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Will we ever know truth.
The veracity of the moon landings is not a subject that has interested me much, but I do have one thought on it now.

If they'd never happened, would NASA and others be going ahead with their advanced plans for a manned Mars landing, basing those on the moon landing experiences?

I think not, surely they'd still be trying to land men on the moon first?
.
 

Zlatan

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The veracity of the moon landings is not a subject that has interested me much, but I do have one thought on it now.

If they'd never happened, would NASA and others be going ahead with their advanced plans for a manned Mars landing, basing those on the moon landing experiences?

I think not, surely they'd still be trying to land men on the moon first?
.
I agree with that, my feelings are that even if they did go the debacle mentioned above probably along with other issues has been covered up.
Perhaps landing on moon presents insurmountable problems. Has there been anything constructed, assembled and used there.? You, d have thought if possible there would be benefits for something on it? Telescope? Observatory?
Had they been I reckon McDonalds would be there by now.
 
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flecc

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Telescope? Observatory?
The dark side facing out into space would be ideal for those, but only the Chinese have landed there so far, unmanned.

I suppose the European Space Agency's Herschel observatory and telescope in space already does at least as much as a similar sized moon based one would.
.
 
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vfr400

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can we trust the main stream media when it comes to Brexit? It makes me really suspicious when there doesn't seem to be any coverage of this one. Did anybody hear about it?

 
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50Hertz

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Lets assume that's correct. KN are the same on the Earth as the Moon, since force is independent of gravity. 16KN is about the weight of a family car. Can you now imagine the blast you'd need out of the bottom of your car to make it hover 10ft in the air? How much sand or dust do you think would remain underneath it?
Let’s liken this to a helicopter landing in a snow covered field or a desert. Recirculation of sand and snow disturbed by the down wash is a significant problem. It can cause total loss of vision and orientation reference due to the dense cloud of particles surrounding the aircraft. This phenomenon is well known, has caused numerous crashes and procedures have been developed to minimise the affect.

A medium sized helicopter landing on a snow covered helipad will clear about a 10 metre radius, leaving nothing to make footprints in, much like your suggestion that the descent engine on the LEM would clear the lunar surface of dust around the landing site.

However, it must be remembered that unlike a helicopter, the LEM is operating in a vacuum. As soon as the gasses exit the nozzle, they will rapidly expand in all directions, massively dissipating and reducing the amount actually impinging on the ground. A perfect example of this can be seen when a Saturn 5 rocket is on the edge of the Earth’s atmosphere. The width of the exhaust plume is colossal, hundreds of feet across, wider than it is long, right at the nozzle exit point. The same will happen when the LEM fires it’s engine, only to a greater extent, vastly reducing the amount actually impinging on the surface.

I think this could explain why less debris than you expected was disturbed on the surface.
 

OxygenJames

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What motivation is there for those at the bottom of the structure with no prospect of any inheritance whatsoever? Some, to be sure, will see ways in which they might find some degree of financial improvement and well-being. Many will not. Even if they work extremely hard.
Its not the prospect of inheritance that is the motivation! Doh! Is everybody on this list totally ignorant to what motivates people to work hard?
 
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Woosh

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I. m not saying one way or other about this, but if it were faked (which it could have been) dont you think a couple of tons of sand, dust, or whatever couldnt have been deposited around craft.
My suspicions were aroused more around the death of the astronauts during testing. (capsule burst into flames) Google that incident but I do think information surrounding the entire episode is now controlled. Many documents I read a few years ago about the moon landings/space programme (or is it program???) can no longer be accessed.
Bart Sigler has gone quiet, either he has come to his senses or he's frightened. (Buz Aldrin punched him)

What people do is belittle certain lines of thought by shouting "conspiracy theory". Its as though only nutters hold any belief in these. Reality is authorities do cover things up. I, m convinced American Govt was involved in JFK killing. Calling it a conspiracy theory is deflection.

https://www.gaia.com/article/the-apollo-1-conspiracy-did-nasa-covered-up-gus-grissoms-death

Very interesting reading. A NASA safety engineer in process of writing critical report killed himself, and his family, trying to outrun a train.. A week after asronauts died. mmmm Coincidence? No such thing.

Gus Grissom foretold his own death and both his wife and son believe it was carried out by NASA.

Will we ever know truth.
it won't be long before the Chinese go there and colonise the place.
They have already landed a vehicle on the surface of the moon last January.
Perhaps vfr400 was kidnapped by Chinese aliens. That may explain why he knows so much more than us earthlings about Chinese e-bikes.

Yutu, the Chinese rover that vfr400 was kidnapped in (picture is of the dark side):

 

Woosh

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Its not the prospect of inheritance that is the motivation! Doh! Is everybody on this list totally ignorant to what motivates people to work hard?
My children no longer need my help.
I work as a mean to fight diabetes and dementia.
Beside the bikes, I still do about 15 hours a week IT work.
 

vfr400

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I. m not saying one way or other about this, but if it were faked (which it could have been) dont you think a couple of tons of sand, dust, or whatever couldnt have been deposited around craft.
My suspicions were aroused more around the death of the astronauts during testing. (capsule burst into flames) Google that incident but I do think information surrounding the entire episode is now controlled. Many documents I read a few years ago about the moon landings/space programme (or is it program???) can no longer be accessed.
Bart Sigler has gone quiet, either he has come to his senses or he's frightened. (Buz Aldrin punched him)

What people do is belittle certain lines of thought by shouting "conspiracy theory". Its as though only nutters hold any belief in these. Reality is authorities do cover things up. I, m convinced American Govt was involved in JFK killing. Calling it a conspiracy theory is deflection.

https://www.gaia.com/article/the-apollo-1-conspiracy-did-nasa-covered-up-gus-grissoms-death

Very interesting reading. A NASA safety engineer in process of writing critical report killed himself, and his family, trying to outrun a train.. A week after asronauts died. mmmm Coincidence? No such thing.

Gus Grissom foretold his own death and both his wife and son believe it was carried out by NASA.

Will we ever know truth.
I agree. All we know is that things don't add up. That's what interests me.
 
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vfr400

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I agree with that, my feelings are that even if they did go the debacle mentioned above probably along with other issues has been covered up.
Perhaps landing on moon presents insurmountable problems. Has there been anything constructed, assembled and used there.? You, d have thought if possible there would be benefits for something on it? Telescope? Observatory?
Had they been I reckon McDonalds would be there by now.
The thing that makes me the most suspicious is that they've never been back in 50 years. That's incredibly long in this age of technical advancement. From the time Kennedy said that they would go to the time they actually went was only a few years, when the best computers had less computing power than a smartwatch today. I bet most of the engineers were using slide rules to do their calculations. I heard a spokesman from NASA the other day saying that they no longer had the technology to do a manned landing on the moon, and it would take 10 years to develop a suitable craft. It just doesn't add up.
 
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