Brexit, for once some facts.

Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
3,373
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You are wasting my time, just go away and come back when you grow up
What is the point of trying to debate with you?
You have no intention, to do so, just want to act the fool.
And you clearly either didn't read it or more likely it was too complicated for you to understand.

Two things. One. Don't bring up dementia. I find it an uncomfortable subject matter in regard to you.
Two. Stop posting nonsense and lies and I will refrain from pointing out your nonsense and lies.

The facts are simple. No guidelines have been agreed. The NHS is not up for sale. We are not going to be taken over by the USA.

Calm down. You're going to do yourself a mischief.
 
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OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
2,593
1,041
Two things I can agree with there. I was strongly opposed to the expansion of the EU into the Warsaw pact countries. I'd rather have seen them form their own politico-economic group which would have been a valuable buffer between Russia and the EU.

And yes, I think you are right that Scotland will take its chances on independence if given a second opportunity. Brexit has poisoned this part of the union.
Yes. But then who knows.

The trouble the Scots have when push comes to shove is that unlike us leaving the EU - we already have a currency of our own and the economic ability to go out on our own. To be blunt - the position the Scots find themselves in a way less secure and I think they may well decide not to go once they see these facts in the plain light of day.

We shall see.
 
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OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
2,593
1,041
except this time, BJ is no match for NF.
Farage is battle hardened, BJ ducked when he found out in 2016 that the PM job's to deliver brexit was a nightmare. Since, h's done nothing to show he's improved.
If BJ becomes PM, Farage is going to hollow out the conservative party.
Woosh - Farage runs a one-issue party - take the issue away and he goes away. In other words - providing Boris can scrape together something that looks like Brexit - Farage will be history.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
32,608
79
Two things. One. Don't bring up dementia. I find it an uncomfortable subject matter in regard to you.
Two. Stop posting nonsense and lies and I will refrain from pointing out your nonsense and lies.

The facts are simple. No guidelines have been agreed. The NHS is not up for sale. We are not going to be taken over by the USA.

Calm down. You're going to do yourself a mischief.
Grow up
 
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50Hertz

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2019
2,199
2,403
You really are a twat.
Cheers. It’s good to know I’ve rattled you.

Your intelligence is diminished to the extent that you would immerse your head in a pan of boiling water to see if it still hurts. You knew it hurt last time, but you think things might be different this time and it might yield some unknown benefits.
 

gray198

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 4, 2012
1,574
1,068
Two things I can agree with there. I was strongly opposed to the expansion of the EU into the Warsaw pact countries. I'd rather have seen them form their own politico-economic group which would have been a valuable buffer between Russia and the EU.

And yes, I think you are right that Scotland will take its chances on independence if given a second opportunity. Brexit has poisoned this part of the union.
.
I think it was allowing the Eastern European nations into the EU before they were viable that eventually tipped the balance of opinion. This was compounded by the Blair government allowing uncontrolled migration from these countries, and then accusing anyone who questioned it of being a racist
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
32,608
79
Try and post facts not nonsense.

You said that the guidelines had been agreed. What guidelines?

More nonsense and lies from you.

November last year as well. Too cute.

Maybe your readership of a million remembers your words of 8 months ago. I can't remember what you posted yesterday.

Stick to facts.
I did not say
"the guidelines had been agreed. What guidelines?
You did!
You really must stop lying
And it seems not only can you not do this
" I can't remember what you posted yesterday.
You can't remember correctly something I posted an hour ago, or that I proved you a liar and that
The statement ]
"Maybe your readership of a million remembers your words of 8 months ago. I can't remember what you posted yesterday.

You invented the "Million members" remember
Fingers you really must seek help, this problem you have with lying is out of hand.
Here is a little more from the document
"Summary of the Chapters and Provisions of the Ideal FTA 19. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Chapter 7. Movement of LaborThe free movement of people will be an important feature of an ideal U.S.-U.K. free trade agreement. It will open opportunity for workers in both nations to raise their productivity and their standards of living. It will allow for more competition and division of labor in the provision of tradeable services, primarily through the Mode 4 provision of services through the movement of natural persons.The aim of the agreement will be to allow the free movement of labor between the two nations. "
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,762
30,348
I think it was allowing the Eastern European nations into the EU before they were viable that eventually tipped the balance of opinion. This was compounded by the Blair government allowing uncontrolled migration from these countries, and then accusing anyone who questioned it of being a racist
Indeed. But even if ready I would still have preferred them to have their own EU like bloc. That would have kept the EU smaller and more manageable and a partially Slav buffer between Russia and the EU would have been valuable defensively and probably diplomatically too.
.
 
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Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
3,373
1,552
45
I did not say
"the guidelines had been agreed. What guidelines?
You did!
You really must stop lying
And it seems not only can you not do this
" I can't remember what you posted yesterday.
You can't remember correctly something I posted an hour ago, or that I proved you a liar and that
The statement ]
"Maybe your readership of a million remembers your words of 8 months ago. I can't remember what you posted yesterday.

You invented the "Million members" remember
Fingers you really must seek help, this problem you have with lying is out of hand.

You said. And I quote.

"But here you are supporting a party line that takes us out of the so called control of the EU and into the control on the USA as clearly outlined in their requirement for a trade deal.
They will determine the rules that previously we could affect while members of the EU, and they won't allow that sort of freedom that we had."

Utter, utter nonsense. Even for you that is beyond groaner bingo for nonsense and lies.

You really are like a goldfish in a barrel. I have the gun you just keep supplying the ammunition.

Everytime you post nonsense and lies I will show you up.

Seriously read back that nonsense and tell what is true.

Some of the spelling is. But that's about it.
 

gray198

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 4, 2012
1,574
1,068
there has been much hysteria about the NHS being sold off to America. Personally I think that is rubbish. It would be political suicide. However I do think it is in need of some radical reform in many areas. For instance with regard to the food that patients get. It seems ridiculous to me that someone is given the benefit of great skills and great technology to overcome some diseases and injuries, and I do think we have some of the best in the world at this. And then what do we do to help them recover. We feed them with processed food lacking in nutrition and full of junk. Where in any sane thinking is that the best way to proceed. I'm sure there are many other examples of crazy policy that need looking at
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
32,608
79
there has been much hysteria about the NHS being sold off to America. Personally I think that is rubbish. It would be political suicide. However I do think it is in need of some radical reform in many areas. For instance with regard to the food that patients get. It seems ridiculous to me that someone is given the benefit of great skills and great technology to overcome some diseases and injuries, and I do think we have some of the best in the world at this. And then what do we do to help them recover. We feed them with processed food lacking in nutrition and full of junk. Where in any sane thinking is that the best way to proceed. I'm sure there are many other examples of crazy policy that need looking at
So you didn't read the proposed Trade deal either.,or hear what Trump said before retracting it? Or indeed Farage annd his statement we will have to move to an insurance based Heath System?
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,608
12,253
72
Ireland
Two things. One. Don't bring up dementia. I find it an uncomfortable subject matter in regard to you.
Two. Stop posting nonsense and lies and I will refrain from pointing out your nonsense and lies.

The facts are simple. No guidelines have been agreed. The NHS is not up for sale. We are not going to be taken over by the USA.

Calm down. You're going to do yourself a mischief.
It is an absolute truth that today the NHS is not up for sale. It is an expectation that it will not be up for sale tomorrow, and an aspiration that it will not be up for sale next Christmas.
The statement from Grey that it would be "political suicide" needs to be taken in the context that Brexit has already claimed the scalps of TWO , potentially THREE PMs, , evicerated the Tory Party, made plausible the breakup of the United Kingdom, and it has not yet happened!.
The UK, may not be taken over by the USA..why would they bother, but when one has 1/6 the population ,the UK will not have a strong hand. The question which always must be asked in negotiations, is not what's in this for me,but what's in this for the other guy.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
32,608
79
It simply isn't worth responding to Fingers with this link to the Actual official Summary of US-UK Negotiation objectives.
His brain is inadequate to read and comprehend it
I have already posted today other information this is from the following
office of the United States Trade representative, Executive office of the President

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf

Here is a snippet
"- With respect to commercial partnerships:

 Discourage actions that directly or indirectly prejudice or otherwise discourage commercial activity solely between the United States and Israel;
 Discourage politically motivated actions to boycott, divest from, and sanction Israel;  Seek the elimination of politically motivated nontariff barriers on Israeli goods, services, or other commerce imposed on Israel; and
 Seek the elimination of state-sponsored unsanctioned foreign boycotts of Israel, or compliance with the Arab League Boycott of Israel. Currency: - Ensure that the UK avoids manipulating exchange rates in order to prevent effective balance of payments adjustment or to gain an unfair competitive advantage.

And lots more to ensure we know who is boss

"Establish rules that will ensure that the UK does not waive or derogate from the protections afforded in environmental laws for the purpose of encouraging trade or investment. - Establish rules that will ensure that the UK does not fail to effectively enforce environmental laws through a sustained or recurring course of action or inaction in a manner affecting trade or investment between the Parties. "
............................................................
As I pointed out elsewhere. in the EU we had the ability to change rules if they didn't suit us , now we shall ask "how high?" when the Americans say jump!

And we have people who come on here and assert they knew what they were voting for!
 
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Wicky

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 12, 2014
2,823
4,011
Colchester, Essex
www.jhepburn.co.uk
there has been much hysteria about the NHS being sold off to America. Personally I think that is rubbish. It would be political suicide. However I do think it is in need of some radical reform in many areas. For instance with regard to the food that patients get. It seems ridiculous to me that someone is given the benefit of great skills and great technology to overcome some diseases and injuries, and I do think we have some of the best in the world at this. And then what do we do to help them recover. We feed them with processed food lacking in nutrition and full of junk. Where in any sane thinking is that the best way to proceed. I'm sure there are many other examples of crazy policy that need looking at
Hospital Food isn't too bad ( I used to grab the food trolley leftovers on nosh on the hoof - now banned for staff from trolley) - esp as hospitals are kept unnaturally warm and still provide B'fast, lunch and tea. When I worked on the cardiac ward anyone suspected of having a heart attack and awaiting troponin test results would be fed cottage cheese salads - if they were given the all clear they would then get a full English fry up :)

Elderly frequently came in malnourished and dehydrated invariably due to mobility problems at home so to cut the amount of times they would need to visit the loo they would eat and drink less which soon spiralled them to state needing admission. TLC lots of sweet cuppas, high protein diet and they'd soon be okay but problems arranging adequte social care to support them back at home would cause them to stay in hospital longer than necessary (£££) At the weekend with the patients who'd been stuck for months I would take a whole group to a duck pond in the grounds for a much needed change of scenery & fresh air (& for a smoke!)

Surgery cases are booted out as quickly as possible (as I mentioned before this is due to advances in less invasive surgical methods and to avoid hospital acquired infections) to recuperate at home. Often as soon they could drink and have a sarnie they were shot out ASAP and the next one coming in as the previous occupant was on the way out.

Americans & Aussies AFAIK have fast food chains in their hospitals.

Still hospital sarnies can be orrid - and as recently shown t'up north with the listeria outbreak likely supplied by the lowest bidder - less wholesome country produce but from a grim looking unit on an Industrial estate...

 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,457
32,608
79
It is an absolute truth that today the NHS is not up for sale. It is an expectation that it will not be up for sale tomorrow, and an aspiration that it will not be up for sale next Christmas.
The statement from Grey that it would be "political suicide" needs to be taken in the context that Brexit has already claimed the scalps of THREE PMs, , evicerated the Tory Party, made plausible the breakup of the United Kingdom, and it has not yet happened!.
The UK, may not be taken over by the USA..why would they bother, but when one has 1/6 the population ,the UK will not have a strong hand. The question which always must be asked in negotiations, is not what's in this for me,but what's in this for the other guy.
Very true, you don't have to sell the NHS, just let American companies undermine it and hand it piece by piece into their hands, incrementally destroying it by subterfuge,hardly noticed by the public till it's too late, and if you read the summary of their FTA objectives and understand the terminology, that is plainly their intent
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
19,406
16,387
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
there has been much hysteria about the NHS being sold off to America. Personally I think that is rubbish. It would be political suicide. However I do think it is in need of some radical reform in many areas. For instance with regard to the food that patients get. It seems ridiculous to me that someone is given the benefit of great skills and great technology to overcome some diseases and injuries, and I do think we have some of the best in the world at this. And then what do we do to help them recover. We feed them with processed food lacking in nutrition and full of junk. Where in any sane thinking is that the best way to proceed. I'm sure there are many other examples of crazy policy that need looking at
the particular danger regarding our NHS in the context of FTAs after brexit, in particular with the USA, is the competition and potential business for PR firms to 'privatise' the NHS is this: private hospitals.
Pressure will be put on any conservative government to open up the procurement to American private hospitals. Let's face it: you sign away your right to sue if you want an operation done in a private hospital while the NHS can easily be sued if you feel that your operation is not done as well as it should be. This is where private hospitals can compete effectively against NHS hospitals.
 
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