battery life seems fairly poor for me about 4000 miles

it is i footpump

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Jul 6, 2018
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hi all have a kudos vita uno bought 4 years ago 10.4ah battery bikes done approx. 4000 miles.
bikes kept indoors not used much in the winter depending on how cold, now seems to give max of 15 miles on the flat .

my carreara subway with 250 w tdz and yosepower bottle battery 10.4 ah now seems to give about 18 mile range on flat (sport mode which I use all the time)

2 years old about 4000 miles on bike, was much better in the summer.

bosch ktm 1000 miles battery normally gives about 12 mile4s before first bar disappears worse in cold weather band this is dear bosch 400w battery.


so I seem to get 4000 miles from cheaper batteries befor they seem to give half the range now , than when new which makes ebiking a bit pricy


I met some one with a kalkoff which uses the older heavy battery chemistry battery 6 years old and still going strong
 

Woosh

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so I seem to get 4000 miles from cheaper batteries befor they seem to give half the range now , than when new which makes ebiking a bit pricy
it's just the normal running costs.
if you do a lot of mileage, you may be better off getting a battery with LiFePO4 cells.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,317
17,932
It is often very price dependent as you suspect, with age and/or number of charges being relevant.

Many of the cheapest batteries even fail at two to three years or at best have considerably reduced ranges. Low usage can also harm them in some circumstances.

Conversely the more expensive batteries like Panasonic's for their own systems and the similar Kalkhoff-BMZ ones last at least four years, often much longer, and with low range losses per annum. They often don't suffer from low usage due to frequently including a sleep mode to protect them.

With lithium batteries it often really is you get what you pay for. However, that doesn't necessarily mean they are poor value, two years for £250 isn't dearer than four years for £500.
.
 
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Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
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hi all have a kudos vita uno bought 4 years ago 10.4ah battery bikes done approx. 4000 miles.
bikes kept indoors not used much in the winter depending on how cold, now seems to give max of 15 miles on the flat .

my carreara subway with 250 w tdz and yosepower bottle battery 10.4 ah now seems to give about 18 mile range on flat (sport mode which I use all the time)

2 years old about 4000 miles on bike, was much better in the summer.

bosch ktm 1000 miles battery normally gives about 12 mile4s before first bar disappears worse in cold weather band this is dear bosch 400w battery.


so I seem to get 4000 miles from cheaper batteries befor they seem to give half the range now , than when new which makes ebiking a bit pricy


I met some one with a kalkoff which uses the older heavy battery chemistry battery 6 years old and still going strong
Batteries need to be looked after and correctly stored. That means with a low charge only, not fully charged.
Its like a muscle, not using it causes it to weaken, but if you are really lucky, over the next 10 charges or so, it may recover somewhat. Keep a note of the distances achieved.
The worse thing you can do is to leave it on the charger after it goes green. Many do not believe this, but that is the single thing that can damage a battery fastest.
High quality batteries, can generally accept poor treatment slightly better than cheap ones.
I do not need to repeat all the information again about how to prolong battery life, it is here on this forum and on the internet as well.......
regards
Andy
 
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SteveB1262

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Nov 28, 2018
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Modern chargers shut off after full charge is reached so leaving it plugged in does no harm whatsoever. It is usually indicated by all the charge lights going out meaning there is no output from the charger. The advice I was given was to top up after every use with lithium batteries.
 

Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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Modern chargers shut off after full charge is reached so leaving it plugged in does no harm whatsoever. It is usually indicated by all the charge lights going out meaning there is no output from the charger. The advice I was given was to top up after every use with lithium batteries.
That is simply not true.
Most of them go to a "reduced" charge......and if you don't know 100% what you have, its best to remove the charger.
You also need to know "how" to test what sort of charger you have, its easy, but few know how or have the needed equipment to hand!
Battery manufacturers earn a great deal of money in selling new batteries once any guarantee has expired, whether is for mobile phones, laptops or e-bikes...so some apparently have little interest in producing the "perfect" charger!!
Please believe what you wish to believe, its a free world out there!!
regards for 2019 to all here
Andy
 
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SteveB1262

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Nov 28, 2018
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Not as I understand it. It is NOT a constant reduced charge as you imply but a 'topping up' charge to compensate for natural drain. The 'equipment' to check is simple and cheap. Just plug it into a current meter. No current = no charge. I can assure you my charger, in common with most modern chargers DOES not continue charging on reduced current. It does however 'top up' as do my smart chargers for my AAA, AA etc batteries. There is a caveat to this though. If you aren't riding regularly it is best NOT to leave the battery on charge, not because it will overcharge, as it won't, but it does put the cells under more pressure. Is that what you are thinking of? I ride almost every day and have absolutely zero worries about leaving my battery on the charger but if I were to 'mothball' my bike for the winter it would be best to leave it at no more than two thirds charge and only recharge when it gets down to one fifth or 20% charge and charge back up to about 60%. If you have an older charger then just buy a current meter and plug the charger mains plug into that. It will then record what current it has used over a set period of time so you can act accordingly. Bosch guarantee my battery for two years and state a minimum of 500 FULL charges (a partial charge is exactly that, partial and the battery actually records all the partial charges and calculates just how many full charges that equates to). However Bosch state that the battery used correctly should be good for 1000 full charges or eight to nine years of use. I threw out ALL my older chargers (over two years old) a while ago and invested in modern smart chargers. I just don't have battery problems at all but nor do I buy cheap Chinese chargers (smart or not) off eBay. I buy once and ensure I have the right charger for the job. Do not buy cheap chargers or for that matter cheap batteries. As for an already facing battery it is far cheaper to re-cell your own battery. That way you can ensure cell quality as well as cell capacity. It isn't a particularly difficult job but you do have to have some electrical circuit nowse and have or make (reasonably simple) a spot welder. The BMS can be utilised from the old battery making it a viably economic proposition. Re-celling yourself can save you over 75% on a new battery or 40/50% if you have it done professionally. I certainly wouldn't buy a new one 'off the shelf ' at current prices.
 

it is i footpump

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Jul 6, 2018
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my 10.4ah yosepower bottle battery was £160 just over 2 years ago,
In the summer I do a trip of 23 miles some of it hilly, in the winter I seem to lose about 9 miles off range ,eventhough I am on the flat,
I then do above trip in the summer, and find I am nearer 25-30 miles and more hilly. will see what I get this summer (2019)

yesterday I used my newish enerprof 13ah pack linked to my yose 10.4ah basttery did 19.8 miles , about 2 miles of hills.

got home 3.5 hours to recharge enerprof/ 1.5hours for yosepower
 

Woosh

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got home 3.5 hours to recharge enerprof/ 1.5hours for yosepower
You said you linked the two batteries, so they have the same voltage.
Assuming you have standard 2A charger, your 10.4AH took 1.5 hours, so it puts back into the battery 3AH or 29% of 10.4AH. Your Enerprof took 3.5 hours @ 2A = 7AH or 54% of 13AH.

your yosepower may need rebalancing.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
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Not as I understand it. It is NOT a constant reduced charge as you imply but a 'topping up' charge to compensate for natural drain. The 'equipment' to check is simple and cheap. Just plug it into a current meter. No current = no charge. I can assure you my charger, in common with most modern chargers DOES not continue charging on reduced current. It does however 'top up' as do my smart chargers for my AAA, AA etc batteries. There is a caveat to this though. If you aren't riding regularly it is best NOT to leave the battery on charge, not because it will overcharge, as it won't, but it does put the cells under more pressure. Is that what you are thinking of? I ride almost every day and have absolutely zero worries about leaving my battery on the charger but if I were to 'mothball' my bike for the winter it would be best to leave it at no more than two thirds charge and only recharge when it gets down to one fifth or 20% charge and charge back up to about 60%. If you have an older charger then just buy a current meter and plug the charger mains plug into that. It will then record what current it has used over a set period of time so you can act accordingly. Bosch guarantee my battery for two years and state a minimum of 500 FULL charges (a partial charge is exactly that, partial and the battery actually records all the partial charges and calculates just how many full charges that equates to). However Bosch state that the battery used correctly should be good for 1000 full charges or eight to nine years of use. I threw out ALL my older chargers (over two years old) a while ago and invested in modern smart chargers. I just don't have battery problems at all but nor do I buy cheap Chinese chargers (smart or not) off eBay. I buy once and ensure I have the right charger for the job. Do not buy cheap chargers or for that matter cheap batteries. As for an already facing battery it is far cheaper to re-cell your own battery. That way you can ensure cell quality as well as cell capacity. It isn't a particularly difficult job but you do have to have some electrical circuit nowse and have or make (reasonably simple) a spot welder. The BMS can be utilised from the old battery making it a viably economic proposition. Re-celling yourself can save you over 75% on a new battery or 40/50% if you have it done professionally. I certainly wouldn't buy a new one 'off the shelf ' at current prices.
It is of course everyone's personal chice as to what they believe, but may I say that the method you use to check the charger, is fraught with possible misinterpretation of the type you mention. It partially depends upon the charger efficiency as well....the more efficient the charger is, the more likely that you will be mislead with your method.....
You need a special adapter to make a fully correct assessment and two special meters.
Remember, you have the problem, you told us all, but apparently would rather "kill the messenger" than learn something possibly useful!
But you still don't know why only 4,000 miles on one battery!!!!
You choice again of course!
On my first e-bike, I had one battery installed on the bike that I bought 2nd hand with the bike, one year old.
I was doing well over 3,000 Kms per year (retired with a dog that needed VERY long walks , 6 times each day!!).
The bike was 7 years old when I gave it away (1+6 years) and the battery had no noticeable loss of distance per charge! It is still in use.....I trained the new owner carefully!
Though I was not measuring it exactly down to the single kilometer!! :) I had got out of that ages before.....
Only one time it had a definitely reduced distance on a charge (which I noticed immediately!), which was down to two under inflated tyres, totally my fault!
Pumping them up fully again fixed the problem completely!
3,000 KMs is around 2,000 miles (from my head), so on your terms, I should have bought several new batteries in the 6 years!!
But I only ever had the one, secondhand on the bike, also secondhand!!
But as I already said, please make your own choice on the matter as I have far better things to do in this world....
Do have a great 2019.
Andy
 
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SteveB1262

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Nov 28, 2018
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"Remember, you have the problem, you told us all, but apparently would rather "kill the messenger" than learn something possibly useful!
But you still don't know why only 4,000 miles on one battery!!!!
You choice again of course!"

I just cannot understand just what point you are trying to make? I don't have a problem with my battery at all. Where have you got that idea from? I cannot see the point of being rude and sarcastic so I think this discussion will be better ended at this point.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
322
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Not as I understand it. It is NOT a constant reduced charge as you imply but a 'topping up' charge to compensate for natural drain. The 'equipment' to check is simple and cheap. Just plug it into a current meter. No current = no charge. I can assure you my charger, in common with most modern chargers DOES not continue charging on reduced current. It does however 'top up' as do my smart chargers for my AAA, AA etc batteries. There is a caveat to this though. If you aren't riding regularly it is best NOT to leave the battery on charge, not because it will overcharge, as it won't, but it does put the cells under more pressure. Is that what you are thinking of? I ride almost every day and have absolutely zero worries about leaving my battery on the charger but if I were to 'mothball' my bike for the winter it would be best to leave it at no more than two thirds charge and only recharge when it gets down to one fifth or 20% charge and charge back up to about 60%. If you have an older charger then just buy a current meter and plug the charger mains plug into that. It will then record what current it has used over a set period of time so you can act accordingly. Bosch guarantee my battery for two years and state a minimum of 500 FULL charges (a partial charge is exactly that, partial and the battery actually records all the partial charges and calculates just how many full charges that equates to). However Bosch state that the battery used correctly should be good for 1000 full charges or eight to nine years of use. I threw out ALL my older chargers (over two years old) a while ago and invested in modern smart chargers. I just don't have battery problems at all but nor do I buy cheap Chinese chargers (smart or not) off eBay. I buy once and ensure I have the right charger for the job. Do not buy cheap chargers or for that matter cheap batteries. As for an already facing battery it is far cheaper to re-cell your own battery. That way you can ensure cell quality as well as cell capacity. It isn't a particularly difficult job but you do have to have some electrical circuit nowse and have or make (reasonably simple) a spot welder. The BMS can be utilised from the old battery making it a viably economic proposition. Re-celling yourself can save you over 75% on a new battery or 40/50% if you have it done professionally. I certainly wouldn't buy a new one 'off the shelf ' at current prices.
You are seriously misunderstanding the problems with most chargers.....and I personally have never "seen" a perfect charger, though I have only seen about 10 in total.
Remember that a battery has a fixed number of recharges in it, that depends upon many things, manufacturer, quality, usage and the charger.
If we take as a middle value say 2000 charges.
These do not need to be full charges, they can be partial charges, that is why running a battery to the correct level of "empty" gives the best overall distance per charge. Then charging full and removing the charger when the LED goes green!
That can be helped with having two batteries, so that at the correct point, the battery can be changed while out riding.
As you say, a charger switches itself on and off, even when the battery is probably well over 95% charged.
This Hysteresis is designed into the charger.
I find it to be really bad.
You call it topping up!
Each time the charger turns on, that is part of a charge cycle of the battery "used up!", exactly how much is difficult to quantify as I will not risk my own batteries !
The longer the charger is connected after the full charge is achieved, the more charge cycles are lost!
Also, leaving a charger switched on does not in any way help the charge leveling as many erroneously believe, as this charge leveling is internal to the battery as charged cells are equalised.
There is apparently no need for the charger to be connected that I can find detailed anywhere.....
High quality cells, and I believe Panasonic are one of the best manufacturers myself, definitely do last longer and can be charged more times than badly made ones. There is also less risk with fire and explosions..
They build batteries with tested cells of the same characteristics, after testing each cell individually. This "reduces" the work needed to be done by the charge leveling. Especially when the battery is fairly new......
As they get older, and differences are "noticed" by the electronics, then capacity is gradually lost! As all cells are apparently brought to be the same as the lowest capacity cell.
The greater the capacity differences are between cells, the lower the capacity of the whole battery. The shorter the distance that it can cover.
I really don't know whether you can understand these (I feel) simple principles, and I don't really care either way!
But I find it mildly interesting in just how people who with little or no technical knowledge or training, "know so much, but always believe wrong information!"
Fascinating!!
The information I have posted here on this forum is as correct as possible.
But its a free choice, who you want to believe!!!
Andy
 
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Remember that a battery has a fixed number of recharges in it, that depends upon many things, manufacturer, quality, usage and the charger.
If we take as a middle value say 2000 charges.
These do not need to be full charges, they can be partial charges, that is why running a battery to the correct level of "empty" gives the best overall distance per charge. Then charging full and removing the charger when the LED goes green!
This doesn't appear to be how the latest Bosch technology works, see
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/system-overview/
I quote:
"Thanks to the use of modern lithium-ion technology, the batteries can be recharged any number of times, even for short periods, regardless of their charge status. The Bosch rechargeable batteries do not suffer from memory effect. Another plus: Even after long periods of storage, the battery can be used without recharging. The self-discharge of the battery is extremely low."
I've been reliably informed that 3 times 1/3rd topups are the same as 1 full charge as far as the Bosch warranty goes.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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well my 4 year old 400w bosch batt is showing its age now and does about half the range from new esp if left in turbo mode with the dongle on so id say i got my moneys worth out of it and will get recelled buy jimmy at some point this year.

nothing lasts forever esp batts lol just some cells last longer than others ;)
 

Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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This doesn't appear to be how the latest Bosch technology works, see
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/system-overview/
I quote:
"Thanks to the use of modern lithium-ion technology, the batteries can be recharged any number of times, even for short periods, regardless of their charge status. The Bosch rechargeable batteries do not suffer from memory effect. Another plus: Even after long periods of storage, the battery can be used without recharging. The self-discharge of the battery is extremely low."
I've been reliably informed that 3 times 1/3rd topups are the same as 1 full charge as far as the Bosch warranty goes.
As I have said more than once here, you can believe who you wish.......
But if you "read between the lines" they are often saying the same as I am!!
As a battery ages, the charger tops up more and more often......maybe 3 or more times an hour!!!
Have you checked....?
So every extra hour on the charger is possibly the equivalent to a full charge.....Overnight, say 8 hours, is the equivalent to to 8 charges.......
Reading through what you say, surely its obvious that taking the charger off once a full charge has been achieved is better for the battery?
But NEVER forget, they make their money by SELLING batteries, so as long as the guarantee period has passed......you pay!!!
Why do you believe them 100%, I really cannot understand why!
They gain if you believe them and they lose if you believe me. Its that simple!!
I have Scottish blood, we as a nation, are most careful with money etc..

Andy
 
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As I have said more than once here, you can believe who you wish.......
But if you "read between the lines" they are often saying the same as I am!!
As a battery ages, the charger tops up more and more often......maybe 3 or more times an hour!!!
Have you checked....?
So every extra hour on the charger is possibly the equivalent to a full charge.....Overnight, say 8 hours, is the equivalent to to 8 charges.......
Reading through what you say, surely its obvious that taking the charger off once a full charge has been achieved is better for the battery?
But NEVER forget, they make their money by SELLING batteries, so as long as the guarantee period has passed......you pay!!!
Why do you believe them 100%, I really cannot understand why!
They gain if you believe them and they lose if you believe me. Its that simple!!
I have Scottish blood, we as a nation, are most careful with money etc..

Andy
There's no point in continuously having batteries connected to a charger for all sorts of reasons. I was educating you regarding Bosch's statement that "Thanks to the use of modern lithium-ion technology, the batteries can be recharged any number of times, even for short periods, regardless of their charge status." ie there's no penalty in not discharging their batteries.
 
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Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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There's no point in continuously having batteries connected to a charger for all sorts of reasons. I was educating you regarding Bosch's statement that "Thanks to the use of modern lithium-ion technology, the batteries can be recharged any number of times, even for short periods, regardless of their charge status." ie there's no penalty in not discharging their batteries.
As I keep basically saying, you can do what you want and believe who you want, but I have no financial gain or loss with whatever you do.
You have any loss or gain!!
Battery companies, as do many companies selling something, are MOST economical with the truth!! Obviously!!
That you cannot or simply do not want to believe what I say is your choice in the matter.
I do notice that you do not say that my advice is wrong, nor do you say that my advice can damage a battery.
My method is 100% SAFE for ANY battery type! SAFE!!
I am strongly reminded of Matthew 7:6 !
Again, do what you want, and of course believe who and what you want!
"No skin off my nose!" as we used to say!!
But I personally would be appalled if I only got 4000 miles from a battery.....
I would know that I was doing something wrong!! Speaking from my own last 8 years with e-bikes, I would expect at least twice that "mileage", or even a tad more!

Has anyone else here a comment as to what total mileage they may have achieved with any bike battery? Good and bad! Together with the battery/cell manufacturer.

Mine was Panasonic cells in a case from another company.

An aquaintance of mine needed a new battery after about 12 months (we bought on the same day, the same bike/battery/charger combination, from the same person), where I sold my bike after 6 years, with the battery still in a good condition, after doing around 3000+ Kms Per year!!
That prompted me to further investigate why her battery died so soon! I found out that she put it on charge after each bike ride!! Apparently advice from the seller! Killed the battery completely!!
Andy
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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Battery companies, as do many companies selling something, are MOST economical with the truth!! Obviously!!
we are certainly not economical with the truth!
 

zakventis

Finding my (electric) wheels
Aug 28, 2017
23
14
UK - Wales - Monmouth
[QUOTE="Andy-Mat, post: 478602,
Has anyone else here a comment as to what total mileage they may have achieved with any bike battery? Good and bad! Together with the battery/cell manufacturer.
Andy[/QUOTE]

Bosch 500W (on Trek with Performance CX) - 21 months old, 6,927 miles. Recharge when below 50%, unplug when lights go out. Lives in warm, smoke-free home!
My calculations: Full charges - c. 200. Capacity loss (based on identical trip new/now) 22%.
No complaints whatsoever!
 
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