Bike Cameras. The Negatives and Positives of using them

[SteveRuss]

I bought one a few years back for use on my Boardman pedal bike. I had it clipped to the handlebars so most drivers didn't notice it.

I have since attached it to the side of my bicycle helmet with a couple of heavy duty cable ties. Since then, i've not really worked out whether it's a bonus having it on or a hinderance.

As it sticks out from the side of the helmet, I am aware that most drivers that bother to look work out that i'm wearing a camera and behave themselves around me. That's a bonus and I do notice this a lot. Especially with bus drivers.

A few weeks ago however I was nearly crushed (sandwiched) between a white van and a parked car. I banged on the side of the van as he passed as he clearly wasn't paying attention so it was purely to let him know I was there. He stopped, got out (big scaffolder chap) and came right up to me having a go. I was waiting for a punch so I had my hands up to protect myself (a woman across the road was shouting for him to leave me alone). He then noticed the camera and proceeded to try and rip it off my helmet. Luckily i'm stronger than he thought and managed to defend myself by throwing him back. Once he realised he couldn't get the camera and was being filmed, he backed off and left. I took the footage to the police station and they claim the video proves "driving without due care and attention" and "common assault", for which I am prosecuting him for at the moment.

I just wonder what would have happened if I didn't have a camera. Maybe a full fight would have ensued (self defence in my case). Maybe he would have had a shouting match with me and then left. I don't know. Although the fact that this is now a police matter which is a positive, i'm not sure if the whole thing is worth it. Why? If someone does something naughty and knows you have filmed it, the temptation for them to destroy the camera becomes a good reason for them to assault you. An assault that may not happen if you didn't have one. I'm not a fighter but i'm strong and most people don't try and mess with me if i've get harassed so I think i'll stick with it for now as I don't scare easily. I just wondered what other people's feelings on them as cyclists.

 

[RobF]

There are few things in life I truly despise, but bullying is one of them.

Well done for sticking up to thug man, if I know anything about scaffolders they are very handy, so he would have been expecting a fairly easy victory.

Very hard to gauge the impact of your camera on the situation.

Seems to me thug man was intent on a physical confrontation.

You would probably have been pushed and shoved, camera or no camera.

 

[flecc]

I just wondered what other people's feelings on them as cyclists.

My feelings towards video cameras are negative. No-one likes the feeling that they are being constantly watched so cameras have a considerable potential to annoy.

There's also a very big difference between cameras that are for the civil good and under the control of a responsible authority, and those being used for any purpose by anyone not subject to any controls.

Similary cameras that shops use for the express purpose of preventing shoplifting are a very different thing from anyone using a camera anywhere for any reason.

I'm not a police officer or any other civil authority, just a fellow citizen. Therefore I would never use a video camera on a bike since I can understand others might see using one privately as somewhat anti-social and provocative.
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[jonathan75]

If someone does something naughty and knows you have filmed it, the temptation for them to destroy the camera becomes a good reason for them to assault you.

OK my criminal law knowledge isn't what it ought to be but isn't what you're describing in this sentence, an additional crime, i.e. an attempt to defeat the ends of justice?

But my main thought is that drivers are far more distressed at the 'public dishonour' of someone loudly 'disrespecting' them in front of others (including protesting at their driving), or doing so by tapping on their van, than they are at having their criminally bad driving recorded.

All the major road rage incidents I've seen on video or in my life, just with a challenge to a road user who deserves it. I might be wrong because any cases of destroyed/stolen cameras obviously don't go on youtube (although contrariwise, micro SD cards are nearly indestructible). But I just can't imagine there being people who are willing to commit multiple crimes to stop them being charged with careless driving. Perhaps I am naive.

But yes I'm for cameras bigtime. We should be like Russia (there's a claim...) where all drivers must have a dashcam for insurance purposes.

 

[jonathan75]

No-one likes the feeling that they are being constantly watched so cameras have a considerable potential to annoy.

....

I can understand others might see using one privately as somewhat anti-social and provocative.
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You seem to have a sympathy for annoyance you think others may feel, without saying how you feel yourself!

I don't see why someone's annoyance at being filmed should morally outweigh the film-maker's interest in having their right not to be assaulted protected by the threat of legal recourse, let alone such that the filmee should turn vigilante and attack the person with a helmet camera. Yes so if we had no surveillance then maybe society would be x% happier, but that would be at the expense of the rights of people preyed on.

 

[flecc]

You seem to have a sympathy for annoyance you think others may feel, without saying how you feel yourself!

My feelings are so rarely seriously offended by other road users that it isn't a consideration, and I'm in a densely trafficked London borough.

I see cameras as an overreaction to very occasional problems, which from the videos I've seen are too often provoked by a cyclist's unnecessary behaviour.

I don't set out to offend and I don't grossly overreact to a close passing vehicle, so I have no particular problem.

Russia which you remarked on before has a very different situation. Perhaps 90% of the drivers are relatively new and inexperienced, a very high proportion of the population there has a severe drinking problem with drunkenness very common, so the driving standards and accident rates are appalling as a consequence.
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[selrahc1992]

I bought one a few years back for use on my Boardman pedal bike. I had it clipped to the handlebars so most drivers didn't notice it.

I have since attached it to the side of my bicycle helmet with a couple of heavy duty cable ties. Since then, i've not really worked out whether it's a bonus having it on or a hinderance.

As it sticks out from the side of the helmet, I am aware that most drivers that bother to look work out that i'm wearing a camera and behave themselves around me. That's a bonus and I do notice this a lot. Especially with bus drivers.

A few weeks ago however I was nearly crushed (sandwiched) between a white van and a parked car. I banged on the side of the van as he passed as he clearly wasn't paying attention so it was purely to let him know I was there. He stopped, got out (big scaffolder chap) and came right up to me having a go. I was waiting for a punch so I had my hands up to protect myself (a woman across the road was shouting for him to leave me alone). He then noticed the camera and proceeded to try and rip it off my helmet. Luckily i'm stronger than he thought and managed to defend myself by throwing him back. Once he realised he couldn't get the camera and was being filmed, he backed off and left. I took the footage to the police station and they claim the video proves "driving without due care and attention" and "common assault", for which I am prosecuting him for at the moment.

I just wonder what would have happened if I didn't have a camera. Maybe a full fight would have ensued (self defence in my case). Maybe he would have had a shouting match with me and then left. I don't know. Although the fact that this is now a police matter which is a positive, i'm not sure if the whole thing is worth it. Why? If someone does something naughty and knows you have filmed it, the temptation for them to destroy the camera becomes a good reason for them to assault you. An assault that may not happen if you didn't have one. I'm not a fighter but i'm strong and most people don't try and mess with me if i've get harassed so I think i'll stick with it for now as I don't scare easily. I just wondered what other people's feelings on them as cyclists.

it's very thought provoking. i dont have a camera and plan getting one. this morning i overtook a van several times - as one does as traffic slows at junctions and one passes on the inside. then - after three or so junctions it overtook me, deliberately cut me off (if i didnt slow down it woudl have crushed me against a parked car) and the driver - a middleaged woman, believe it or not - threw me the finger. i felt upset (more by teh potential of being crushed than the finger). i didnt react and so the whole thing didnt escalate. But on reflection i need a camera - soon. my hunch is that (this isny by way of telling anyone else to do) that she was the bourgeoisie type who wouldnt have done that if i had a camera on my helmet (unlike teh scaffolder) and a camera could inhibit 60% plus of drivers who could otehrwise behave abusively (which is good enough for me). Frankly, rightly or worngly, if it becomes a choice between a crushed pelvis and invading others' privacy, i'm all for invading it.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Camera mounted on helmet not good... yes I am looking at you Michael Schumacher!

Body cameras, it seems to be a very English thing, I saw a guy on TV with front and back cameras in a fight with a van driver because of the cameras, my thought at the time was WTF? Kids have cameras on their bikes so that they can post videos of their (generally) law breaking exploits to YouTube. Have you all seen the Brazilian guys slip-streaming a lorry at over 100kmh? No helmets (no good anyway at that speed) and bunny hopping the white lines/cat eyes. The man has skillzzzz!

 

[Nealh]

Thought provoking, I currently use mine on the handle bars clipped into a Lezyne light holder I may just well use it as a head cam just to see what happens as often I have to stop as as cars overtaking parked cars on the opposite side of the road just carry on as if I don't exist.

 

[SteveRuss]

Just read every word of what everyone has written so far.

Flecc. I get your concerns about the intrusion of the public video camera thing, but I don't want anyone to think that I am the type to rush around looking for someone I can disgrace on Youtube for my own kicks. I'm no fan of the monitoring of innocent people.

I forgot to mention something which should go on my 'positive' list. When I have the camera on (and I generally only run it on public roads) I find I react better to the every day issues every Uk cyclist probably faces with some people's ignorant and dangerous driving. I'm on camera too. If anything, my voice is the most clearly audible part of any verbal melee I may have with a taxi driver, or whoever. I place my self centre stage using one and any complaint I may decide to alert the authorities to will have my performance clearly represented to critique, albeit from a mainly audible standpoint.

I'll continue to stand up to ignorant driving as i'm sure we all have no choice but to do... and I wouldn't even think of using footage just to publicly shame people that have been grumpy about making a common driving mistake. I suppose I use it as if something goes really wrong, then I have an infallible witness. That's why i'm continuing to choosing to wear it at this stage (somewhat embarrassingly granted!).

Cheers for all the comments so far.

 

[flecc]

Flecc. I get your concerns about the intrusion of the public video camera thing, but I don't want anyone to think that I am the type to rush around looking for someone I can disgrace on Youtube for my own kicks. I'm no fan of the monitoring of innocent people.

I was just giving my opinion is response to your request for other's views, not in any way attributing negative behaviour to you or anyone specific.

Overall I feel that society has become increasingly intolerant, and the use of cameras to film others behaviour is in some ways an expression of that.

That's just my view, but I recognise it's not a popular one.
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[Emo Rider]

I am a camera user. I have recorded two particularly serious incidents of dangerous driving that could have ended very badly for myself. In both cases, 6 weeks apart on the same strech of road, they were committed by two different drivers from the same organization. I complained and submitted my first video to the organization that swore, hand on heart, that they would rectify the situation. 6 weeks later, with my second video, I was sitting down with officials of said organization face to face to map out a plan to prevent this from happening to myself and others again. This video is now part of their driver training program. What would have been done if I had complained without video?

Yes we all have seen the youtube videos of bike riders that contributed to their situation by their words and actions. However, those words and actions would have never happened if drivers were driving safely and with care and caution of other road users. The word respect comes to mind.

I have also seen video of riders being outright struck and grieviously injured. In the aftermath, even with incriminating video in hand, the police give the drivers the lightest of punishment even though they have caused a horrific impact on another road users life. Apparently just because they were on a bike and their lives are somehow not as important as someone driving a vehicle. Again, what would have happened if their were no video to back up the account of the incident?

Cyclist need to protect themselves. The first step is to become a respectful and aware rider that uses the road defensively and avoids putting themselves in harms way. The second step is to record video and use it to help make roads safer for all.

 

[4bound]

In the aftermath, even with incriminating video in hand, the police give the drivers the lightest of punishment even though they have caused a horrific impact on another road users life. Apparently just because they were on a bike and their lives are somehow not as important as someone driving a vehicle. Again, what would have happened if their were no video to back up the account of the incident?

Emorider - I agree with much of what you say, but its not right to blame the Police for this. The laws are made by politicians, the sentencing guidelines are produced by the little known Sentencing Council
( https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/about-us/ ). The prosecution decision is taken by the CPS, the sentence is set by the judiciary. The police role is to investigate the incident and present the evidence for prosecution to the CPS. By all means blame the criminal justice system, but the decisions you talk of are not entirely the fault of the police.

 

[Emo Rider]

Emorider - I agree with much of what you say, but its not right to blame the Police for this. The laws are made by politicians, the sentencing guidelines are produced by the little known Sentencing Council
( https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/about-us/ ). The prosecution decision is taken by the CPS, the sentence is set by the judiciary. The police role is to investigate the incident and present the evidence for prosecution to the CPS. By all means blame the criminal justice system, but the decisions you talk of are not entirely the fault of the police.

Agreed and my wording about the police handing out the punishment is obviousy incorrect. Still, it seems that cyclist are treated by the authorities like some sort of second class citizen. If someone walked up behind some and struck them in the head with a cricket bat, they'd go to jail. Kill or injure someone on a bike and 1) It seems as if it is immediately assumed it was the cyclists fault because they were on the road in the first place 2) The court hands out fines and loss of point as if you had jumped a red light(caught on camera btw). Sorry to implicate the police, their job is not one I envy.

 

[tillson]

the police give the drivers the lightest of punishment even though they have caused a horrific impact on another road users life. Apparently just because they were on a bike and their lives are somehow not as important as someone driving a vehicle.

The police do not punish people, their job is to collect evidence and facts and to present the information to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). They (CPS) then decide if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute and if the do, successfully, the court system issues the penalty in accordance with sentencing guidelines. So the punishment is nothing at all to do with the police and is far removed form their influence.

I don't really like the idea of cameras and think that they cause some people to go out of their way to look for trouble. They purchase these devices and are then on the lookout for a means to justify the investment. This usually takes the form of a relatively minor bit of inconsiderate driving, which in any other situation the cyclist could easily anticipate and avoid, being inflated into an "incident" for the purposes of the camera.

I would rather concentrate all of my effort and attention into seeing and avoiding poor driving before it comes to kill me. Cameras do very little, if anything at all, to assist with this.

 

[selrahc1992]

The police do not punish people, their job is to collect evidence and facts and to present the information to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). They (CPS) then decide if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute and if the do, successfully, the court system issues the penalty in accordance with sentencing guidelines. So the punishment is nothing at all to do with the police and is far removed form their influence.

I don't really like the idea of cameras and think that they cause some people to go out of their way to look for trouble. They purchase these devices and are then on the lookout for a means to justify the investment. This usually takes the form of a relatively minor bit of inconsiderate driving, which in any other situation the cyclist could easily anticipate and avoid, being inflated into an "incident" for the purposes of the camera.

I would rather concentrate all of my effort and attention into seeing and avoiding poor driving before it comes to kill me. Cameras do very little, if anything at all, to assist with this.

Ive just ordered an sj4000 (from amazon for £52), a considerbale investment, but in my case some underwater videos from Anse D'Arlet may justify teh investment before i consider how it keeps drivers in my neck of teh woods a bit more careful. Tilsson's response reminded me of an accident i had a few years ago: i had been speeding along when a car deliberately pulled out in front of me (in her defense i woudl say teh driver had not expected me to arrive at teh junction quite as quickly as i did - i was going uphill on a friends electric bike) - anthuew the crux (and to me very funny bit in a very surreal way) is that i braked, hard and skidden - sideways - underneath her car. she - to her credit - did not proceed ot drive over me, but stopped and got out. THEN she took a deep breath and began to deliver a formal apology that woudl ahve done Gordon Brown's about Britain and slavery proud - all while i was lying (somewhat bleeding) under her car - and all without asking whether i was OK. I extracted myself and all was well. But teh incident even now brings hoime to me some of teh delicious irony of living on this little island. mainly I'm hoping the next time i approach a junction a simialr driver might think twioce about just pulling out in front of me though. happilly i dont live the kind of life you seem to imagine others live in which "inflating incidents" are so central.

 

[flecc]

I continue to find its strange how in accounts to support the use of safety measures like cameras and (dare I mention it) helmets, I read about the horrific incidents that have been suffered.

After 68 years from the age of 10 when I started cycling I still haven't a mark on me from any accident simply because I haven't suffered any. Very long ago that taught me that drivers on the whole know exactly what they are doing and there's no need to be in a dripping panic because I felt one came a bit too close. Whether they miss by an inch or a yard the result is the same, no harm. Others have said in the past that the worst will happen to me sooner or later, but at my age the amount of time for that to happen is diminishing rapidly!

Same with motorbikes which I rode for 54 years from the age of 16, I never even came off one on the road so never got hurt, although I did suffer a few offs and knocks in off-road competition which was to be expected. Meanwhile I've known other bikers killed and seriously injured, including two in wheelchairs for life.

There's a moral there which I leave you to work out, luck it certainly can't be after all that time. Nor can it be the area since I've lived most of my life in London boroughs and have also used the roads nationally over many years.

Yes, there are bad drivers and a very few are downright dangerous, but defensive riding and driving can be good enough to cope even with those nearly all the time, it seems all the time in my case.
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[anotherkiwi]

My most serious (only???) bicycle accident happened when a tramp, who surprise! surprise! was drunk, stepped out from between two vans without looking. He went down and as my feet were strapped into the pedals (most of you are old enough to remember strap in pedals ) I also went down, on my side, in slow motion, swearing the whole way down... Very embarrasing

Motorbikes is another story... bent a Ford Fiesta in two with my right shoulder once...

Tony

 

[Croxden]

I continue to find its strange how in accounts to support the use of safety measures like cameras and (dare I mention it) helmets, I read about the horrific incidents that have been suffered.

After 68 years from the age of 10 when I started cycling I still haven't a mark on me from any accident simply because I haven't suffered any. Very long ago that taught me that drivers on the whole know exactly what they are doing and there's no need to be in a dripping panic because I felt one came a bit too close. Whether they miss by an inch or a yard the result is the same, no harm. Others have said in the past that the worst will happen to me sooner or later, but at my age the amount of time for that to happen is diminishing rapidly!

Same with motorbikes which I rode for 54 years from the age of 16, I never even came off one on the road so never got hurt, although I did suffer a few offs and knocks in off-road competition which was to be expected. Meanwhile I've known other bikers killed and seriously injured, including two in wheelchairs for life.

There's a moral there which I leave you to work out, luck it certainly can't be after all that time. Nor can it be the area since I've lived most of my life in London boroughs and have also used the roads nationally over many years.

Yes, there are bad drivers and a very few are downright dangerous, but defensive riding and driving can be good enough to cope even with those nearly all the time, it seems all the time in my case.
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Flecc, I think you have a better Guardian Angel than most.

 

[flecc]

Flecc, I think you have a better Guardian Angel than most.

Certainly no angel since I see him each time I look in a mirror.
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