Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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Looks like Russia and Germany have signed a secret none aggression pact..... again..
Rather different this time though, no threat of Germany attacking Russia, or even the other way round.

In my view Germany's wish to have a peaceful relationship with Russia is the right one. We have it completely wrong in siding with the warmongering USA.
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Woosh

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Looks like Russia and Germany have signed a secret none aggression pact..... again..
that would be a good thing.
The US wants forever to impose economic sanctions.
 
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Woosh

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Whilst Russia simply wants to invade Ukraine.
And their last pact did absolutely nobody any good at all.
there is no good reason for Russia to start a war that they cannot ultimately win. All they can do is a small limited war limited to the Russian speaking border area. What is the point of invading territory that you can't keep? It's not as if they could with 100,000 troops run their tanks all the way to Kiev. The Russian people don't want a war, the Ukrainians don't want a war, only the Americans want to talk up a possible war. The only winners are China which would buy as much Russian gaz as they can lay their hand on and those who would replace Russia to supply oil and gas to Western Europe.
Remember the Cuban crisis when Russians parked their missiles 100 miles or so off the coast of Florida? How would you want Russians to react if Nato did the same to Russia?
 
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Danidl

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there is no good reason for Russia to start a war that they cannot ultimately win. All they can do is a small limited war limited to the Russian speaking border area. What is the point of invading territory that you can't keep? It's not as if they could with 100,000 troops run their tanks all the way to Kiev. The Russian people don't want a war, the Ukrainians don't want a war, only the Americans want to talk up a possible war. The only winners are China which would buy as much Russian gaz as they can lay their hand on and those who would replace Russia to supply oil and gas to Western Europe.
Remember the Cuban crisis when Russians parked their missiles 100 miles or so off the coast of Florida? How would you want Russians to react if Nato did the same to Russia?
I don't think the Americans want a war.
 

Zlatan

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I don't think the Americans want a war.
Don't think anyone actually wants a war but Putin does want more influence over surrounding area... And Germany doesn't want to lose the new gas pipe line...Personally think Germany should be taking harder stance, sending helmets is hardly a help as Ukrainian boxer Klitchko is telling us.
Amazing tho, Putin is obviously considering his options putting 100k troops on border... Ukrainian public are worried, with many trying to buy arms or packing suitcases. .. And Boris, Starmer and Co are more interested in birthday cake.
 

jonathan.agnew

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Don't think anyone actually wants a war but Putin does want more influence over surrounding area... And Germany doesn't want to lose the new gas pipe line...Personally think Germany should be taking harder stance, sending helmets is hardly a help as Ukrainian boxer Klitchko is telling us.
Amazing tho, Putin is obviously considering his options putting 100k troops on border... Ukrainian public are worried, with many trying to buy arms or packing suitcases. .. And Boris, Starmer and Co are more interested in birthday cake.
Integrity really. But I gather the conservative party doesn't have anyone with integrity (to stand against boris). Quelle surprise. so he'll survive and we're facing the fraught post pandemic World with a guy at the helm of the torytannic with a very fragile hold on the truth and reality.
 
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Zlatan

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Integrity really. But I gather the conservative party doesn't have anyone with integrity (to stand against boris). Quelle surprise. so he'll survive and we're facing the fraught post pandemic World with a guy at the helm of the torytannic with a very fragile hold on the truth and reality.
And with a broken Labour party. What could go wrong..
And mean while Truss spends half a million quid on private jet to Australia when Commercial flights were available. 500 tonnes of Co2 to get her useless arse to see Skippy. And we are all trying to save atmosphere. Same old story I, m afraid. One rule for us..
What is wrong with people. Utter stupidity.
 
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Woosh

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Don't think anyone actually wants a war but Putin does want more influence over surrounding area... And Germany doesn't want to lose the new gas pipe line...Personally think Germany should be taking harder stance, sending helmets is hardly a help as Ukrainian boxer Klitchko is telling us.
Amazing tho, Putin is obviously considering his options putting 100k troops on border... Ukrainian public are worried, with many trying to buy arms or packing suitcases. .. And Boris, Starmer and Co are more interested in birthday cake.
consider the evolution of geopolitics since the Yalta conference.
Putin wants to rewind the clock just a little bit, stop NATO's expansion. It is an understandable concern.
Don't forget, 30% of all Ukrainians speak Russian as their mother tongue and nearly all Ukranians can speak Russian. They have close cultural links to Russia.
 
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flecc

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I don't think the Americans want a war.
No, but they definitely want a cold war, seriously missing the last one.

It's the only thing that satisfies their phobic hatred of communism and their compulsion to oppose it. Hence also the new cold war they've started with China.

They just can't help themselves, which is why I think Europe should detach itself from the USA and NATO.
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flecc

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Don't forget, 30% of all Ukrainians speak Russian as their mother tongue and nearly all Ukranians can speak Russian. They have close cultural links to Russia.
Indeed, Ukraine is on the Russian Steppes and was always part of Russia until splitting away as a one country in 1917. So at just over a hundred years old Ukraine has no unique history or culture, it's almost entirely Russian going back a thousand years.
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Zlatan

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Indeed, Ukraine is on the Russian Steppes and was always part of Russia until splitting away as a one country in 1917. So at just over a hundred years old Ukraine has no unique history or culture, it's almost entirely Russian going back a thousand years.
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Perhaps Ukraine should annexe Russia then..???
And, the decision to be part of of Russia is neither our or Putins decision. Its the Ukrainians.. Seems they want things to continue as they are now, with growing attachment to Europe and self determination. Putin plainly doesn't want Ukraine joining NATO, which is not his decision at all. I suspect that's more to do with this episode. It does represent growing encirclement of Russia but hardly think either NATO or USA have any inclination at all to threaten Russia's borders.
As for any threat against Communism, that's a spurious argument at best. Russia is as Capitalist as any nowadays. Communism died years ago.

Basically where NATO choose to site missile silos should be negotiated between Russia and NATO and not used as a lever to justify invading Ukraine.
 
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Woosh

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And, the decision to be part of of Russia is neither our or Putins decision. Its the Ukrainians..
it's not our decision, nor the USA's. We object to a possible invasion and regime change on point of principles in Ukraine and yet, we participated in exactly similar invasion and regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan ourselves.
 
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Zlatan

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it's not our decision, nor the USA's. We object to a possible invasion and regime change on point of principles in Ukraine and yet, we participated in exactly similar invasion and regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan ourselves.
2 wrongs Woosh.
But you are right, it's not ours, USA's or Russia's. As I said, it's purely a decision for Ukrainians to take.
Besides, NATO/UK /US are not making decision, they are attempting to put Russia off doing so.
 

flecc

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As for any threat against Communism, that's a spurious argument at best. Russia is as Capitalist as any nowadays. Communism died years ago.
Not so at all, the USA still sees Russia as a potential communist threat. The Russian Communist party has adopted the Chinese model of democratic communism and Putin regrets the death of the old order.

And communism certainly didn't die out years ago, China, the world's largest country, is a democratic communist one. Just because a state is a consumerist one with elections doesn't mean it's not a communist one. Communism has many models, including the one political party communist one of China.
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Zlatan

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Arguing semantics again flecc. Being Capitalist is rather like pregnancy.. You can't be a bit of either. Capitalism has lifted millions out of poverty in China.
Tell Abromovich at Chelsea he is a communist. I, m afraid communism and excesses of capitalism are mutually exclusive in reality. Yes, we can argue Communism is still part of both regimes, but only in its controlling the masses. The principles of one stop the other in its tracks. Both ways.
In the late 80s I spent a lot of time in Bulgaria. Prices in supermarkets, restaurants, cafes and garages were state controlled. If you bought a meal it was at a fixed price, as we're taxis, everything was state controlled. No free market economy at all. Went back a few years ago. Was just like visiting Germany or France. Cars, petrol, food, cafes, restaurants all paid and charged free market prices. Principles of communism had gone.
Not sure how (in reality) any aspects of communism can exist in a free market Capitalist economy, allowing variations in wages, prices and profits for everyone. It becomes communism in name only. Which is exactly where China and especially Russia are now.
 
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flecc

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Arguing semantics again flecc. Being Capitalist is rather like pregnancy.. You can't be a bit of either. Capitalism has lifted millions out of poverty in China.
Tell Abromovich at Chelsea he is a communist. I, m afraid communism and excesses of capitalism are mutually exclusive in reality. Yes, we can argue Communism is still part of both regimes, but only in its controlling the masses. The principles of one stop the other in its tracks. Both ways.
You are arguing against yourself by quoting Vince Cable who believes China is both.

But that aside, you clearly don't understand the American position. They only need to hear someone say they are communist or hint at being communist to believe it and react strongly against.

I don't know if you are old enough to remember Senator Joe McCarthy and his witch hunt against entirely innocent citizens.
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Zlatan

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You are arguing against yourself by quoting Vince Cable who believes China is both.

But that aside, you clearly don't understand the American position. They only need to hear someone say they are communist or hint at being communist to believe it and react strongly against.

I don't know if you are old enough to remember Senator Joe McCarthy and his witch hunt against entirely innocent citizens.
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Yes, I am just. I wasn't talking about USA, simple fact is the elements of communism that frightened many have gone.(Yes, JFK was worried about ICBMs on Cuba but that wasn't the source of the witch hunt)
Putin and XI are as Capitalist as Boris and Biden.
Communists by name only exist now. Except perhaps in Cuba.
On my early visit to Bulgaria the taxi driver at bottom of particularly steep hill would remove occupants, tell them to walk up the hill, and pick them back up at top in his Moskvitch running on LPG. This was a common practice. Go now and taxi will be a Skoda Superb and driver charging "his" rates. How on earth is any of that now communism. No fixed prices, no communes, no fixed wages, free market. Its quite silly to call that communism. It isn't. No matter what Vince Cable or Putin or XI tell you. It's capitalism. The 2 do not mix. They can't
Perhaps you could explain the elements of communism either regimes have maintained?
All the fundamental practical ones producing a communist society have gone.
Perhaps you are mixing dictatorship and communism. Agreed they are both still bordering on dictatorships. But Capitalist ones.

Screenshot_20220128_174854.jpg
Russia is as far removed from communist/Marxist ideals as we now are. Probably further.
 
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flecc

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Yes, I am just. I wasn't talking about USA, simple fact is the elements of communism that frightened many have gone.(Yes, JFK was worried about ICBMs on Cuba but that wasn't the source of the witch hunt)
Putin and XI are as Capitalist as Boris and Biden.
Communists by name only exist now. Except perhaps in Cuba.
On my early visit to Bulgaria the taxi driver at bottom of particularly steep hill would remove occupants, tell them to walk up the hill, and pick them back up at top in his Moskvitch running on LPG. This was a common practice. Go now and taxi will be a Skoda Superb and driver charging "his" rates. How on earth is any of that now communism. No fixed prices, no communes, no fixed wages, free market. Its quite silly to call that communism. It isn't. No matter what Vince Cable or Putin or XI tell you. It's capitalism. The 2 do not mix. They can't
Perhaps you could explain the elements of communism either regimes have maintained?
All the fundamental practical ones producing a communist society have gone.
Perhaps you are mixing dictatorship and communism. Agreed they are both still bordering on dictatorships. But Capitalist ones.

View attachment 45556
Russia is as far removed from communist/Marxist ideals as we now are. Probably further.
You quoted my reply but didn't appear to have read it.

It's not about the detail of whether a country is or is not factually communist, it is only about American perception. Xi Jinping states that China is communist and has openly stated his ambition to make the whole world communist. The Americans believe it and have started a new cold war with China, getting the UK to join in. These are the facts.

While the USA is predominantly right wing and breeds replacements for Senator Joe McCarthy like Donald Trump, they will continue to see "Reds under the Beds".
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Danidl

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And with a broken Labour party. What could go wrong..
And mean while Truss spends half a million quid on private jet to Australia when Commercial flights were available. 500 tonnes of Co2 to get her useless arse to see Skippy. And we are all trying to save atmosphere. Same old story I, m afraid. One rule for us..
What is wrong with people. Utter stupidity.
Obviously its not my money she was spending, and I don't know ,nor care about the mission she was on to OZ , but taking fast secure transport for official State business , even if it is expensive, is one of the actions I do approve of. Of course its one set of rules for the Proles and another for their Rulers .. and it should be so. That is why one selects Leaders ..so they can make fast executive decisions if and when needed, and not be looking over their shoulder at penny pinching hurlers on the ditch. But like I said , it matters what the visit was about.
 
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