brompton - electric or not

Leonardo

Pedelecer
Dec 5, 2006
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www.jobike.it
I need a piece of advice. I’m thinking to buy a Brompton (ML6 with 12% reduced gearing). I plan to use it as a normal bicycle, without electricity, in the situations I need "intermodal mobility". But before buying I have a couple of questions.

First of all, if I discover that I need an electric kit, what does work better on a Brompton? Nano motor? Crystalyte?

Second question (it is OT, sorry): does anybody have experience of this seller: folding bike - CH White & Son, 51 High Street, Malmesbury, Wiltshire? It is the only one who has the exact model I’m looking for (in Italy the distributor predicts 2 months!) and has good prices as well, but I don’t succeed in getting any info.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I don't know that supplier Leonardo, but perhaps someone else will.

The electric option on a Brompton is tricky. The front hub width is only 76 mm so is very restrictive. Also, the rear design where the rear flops down as you lift the bike could make a carrier mounted battery awkward, and there's hardly anywhere else where it can go on such a small folding bike.

The best suggestion I can make is to contact Kinetics in Scotland. They are very experienced Brompton agents, also handle electric kits, and have carried out a huge range of specialist conversions for customers. If anyone knows what's possible in this respect, it's them. If you go to this Brompton page on their website, when you scroll down right to the foot of the page, you'll see the email address to contact them.
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Leonardo

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Dec 5, 2006
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Thank you for your answer Flecc.

I know the website of Kinetics and I like it very much, it must be a wonderful shop. Unfortunately it seems they have not available the model I’m looking for (8 weeks delivery time!) – therefore I was asking questions about that other supplier (in buying abroad I prefer to have some info about reliability…).

Moreover the (expensive) Heinzmann kit that Kinetics proposes looks like something that has to be set up there - whereas I’d like to try to use this folding in the “light” version before deciding for the electric option… Anyway I’ll follow your suggestion and I’ll try to write them in order to understand better.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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The Heinzmann is a very high quality kit which isn't a problem to set up normally, but that's on normal bikes. On a Brompton it will be more difficult.

I'm going to have a hunt around for past instances of such a conversion, if there is one. Normally it's the Dahon type of folder that's used since that's more amenable to conversion.
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redalpha3

Pedelecer
Oct 31, 2006
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There is a brompton conversion on the kinetics website here:-http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/html/installations_31.shtml
It appears to use the older battery pack.
I have a Dahon folder which has a Heinzmann fitted (by Kinetics actually). I agree with Flecc that it seems a more likely combination, having larger wheels rather than the Brompton 16's. My personal opinion is that I would not recommend the Dahon/Heinzmann combination due to the weight aspect. It is a damned hard beast to fold in a hurry and its ride quality leaves much to be desired. I'm in the process of removing the electric kit to use elsewhere.
 

Leonardo

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Dec 5, 2006
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Thanks Redalpha, your experience is very useful for me. That Heinzmann looks quite invasive indeed. Actually I don’t know yet if I want an electric kit or not for the Brompton. I have to try it in practice before, but anyway I’m looking around: this small Crystalyte kit sold in France and the Nano motor seem to be lighter – the first one should have no problems with the fork’s size if I’m not wrong, while the Nano requires some modification as the Heinzmann. But I’m afraid of drag without assistance of the Crystalye and I don’t know if anybody has experience of the Nano. Moreover, I wonder if it exists something still lighter, let’s say for a not continuous use. This strange Gruber-Assist (English folder here) seems a clever idea, but I’ve never read any experience of it and it seems to me impossible to fit the kit on a Brompton, due to its special requirements concerning saddle tube size and crankset.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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As you say, it wouldn't fit the Brompton Leonardo, but I wouldn't even consider that Gruber assist. There is no way that a 200 watt motor will fit in that space and deliver worthwhile assistance for 1.5 hours from such a small battery, and all of it weighing only 2.4 kilos!

A triumph of marketing over reality more likely. I doubt if the amount of assistance it gives would be worth the cost and trouble of having it.

I can't help but feel some of that is true of the Nano as well. The claims they make are very extravagant, and I'd treat them with scepticism.

A to B magazine, (originally The Folder magazine), who really know folders, take the view that folding electric bikes are virtually all failures, kit or complete, due to a mix of weight, performance, folding difficulties and complexity. This is what they say on the subject:

"I must say we don't recommend any folding electric bike, as too many of them have been completely useless. The only exception is the Dahon Roo EL, but that's a bit expensive for what it does."

Not very promising!
 
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danieldrough

Pedelecer
Feb 21, 2007
44
6
Devon
Dear Leonardo

I purchased my bikes, Twist & Brompton, from Whites, even though they are 170km from me.They have been established for a long time, and have a very good reputation.

Have you seen Mr Motorvator's site? He fits the Nano motor to a Brompton. I tried it at Presteigne and thought that it was very good.

Thank you for your valuable and interesting contributions to the forum.

Kindest regards

Steve
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Good to hear from someone who's actually ridden a Nano at last Steve, we've had to rely mainly on the sales-speak so far. Did you get a chance to ride it uphill at all? It's interesting that Tony Castles gets that over 100 mm motor into 76 mm wide forks!

Leonardo, here's a link to the site that Steve mentions: Mr Motorvator

There's a report page on the Brompton/Nano also linked from that site here.
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danieldrough

Pedelecer
Feb 21, 2007
44
6
Devon
I didn't ride the bike very far Flecc. I rode it round the town which had a short climb in it, and it seemed to be fine.As you will know, conditions were atrocious, which in some perverse way was a good thing, as it was a "real" test of all the bike's abilities. I'm hoping to visit the Marlborough site soon for a fuller evaluation.
The disappointing thing for me at Presteigne, was that the hype(about performance) was as evident from most of the sales people, as it is on the internet. I heard the usual vague/misleading answers to the often asked question,"How far will it go on a charge?" With a few exceptions there didn't appear to be many people demonstrating bikes who had any engineering expertise.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Yes that lack of technical know how really is a problem Steve. Statements are made without any reference to circumstance, rendering them meaningless.

I noticed even on the motorvator site you mentioned, the statement that the Nano will climb 1 in 8. That can only be with the rider helping, or with a very short 1 in 8 charged at, and those were the missing bits in information of course.

I'm basing this on the best full speed hillclimber, the Quando, able to climb 1 in 8 maximum with a 70 kilo rider on a 25 kilo bike, it's motor 576 watts gross, 460 watts net.

The Nano is 425 watts gross, 360 watts net, and watts are watts, their's no better than anyone else's. 1 in 10 unaided at 8 mph I'd guess, and the maths agree. I'll be interested in your experiences at Marlborough if you go there to try it. It's certainly a very neat conversion.
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Some insider information for Leonardo and Steve.

A to B magazine are in the process of testing a Brompton/Nano and they are very impressed. They report some minor niggles, but regard the conversion as very neat and the motor superb.

Hopefully this will be in the next issue this month. (June)

If it lives up to expectations it could at last be an electric folder carryable for commuting by many people.
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nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
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Nigel

yes the brompton/ nano does look a neat setup but i have a feeling its big bucks if only the quando had gears:D NIGEL
 

flecc

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Those prices Nigel, Brompton from about £550 to £1300, depending on model, Nano kit at around £350 with NiMh to around £600 with a large lithium based battery.

So a complete Brompton Nano for anything from £900 to £1900. Mainly for well heeled commuters it seems.
 

Leonardo

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Dec 5, 2006
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www.jobike.it
Sorry for answering so late. Thank you Steve, your information about Whites and the NanoMotor is much appreciated. I’m lucky to be here in this forum.
Flecc, thank you very much as ever, your insider news are precious and really very interesting. It’s a pity that one has to wait for the results of this test. I’m bit worried for the weight though, even just 5 kgs more make a big difference in the portability of a folding bike I think (but I’m speaking only with regard to the kind of use I’m personally interested in, as a complete alternative to my use of my Giant Twist). A friend of mine has a very beautiful “Flyer Faltrad” – the folding bike of the Swiss Biketech Flyer with the Panasonic crank drive and Lithium batteries – and he uses it for daily travelling around Rome as well as for long (100 km!) journeys in the countryside. Wonderful folding I think, but its 19 kgs make it unsuitable for a real “intermodal” urban use: few stairs are already a problem… Now I’m wondering if I should follow my plan (buy the Brompton and then see if I need the electric option) or wait for better info about the Nano (which if I’m not wrong doesn’t allow a simple set up).
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Yes, it's not simple to fit the Nano, as the fork opening has to be widened by about 25 mm.

I must admit that carrying the weight of the bike with motor and battery could be difficult, especially if you have anything else with you to carry.

I don't know if you take the A to B magazine Leonardo, but if not, I'll be happy to scan the test article when it appears and email it to you.
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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No problem Leonardo. Meanwhile, further good news, the weight of the test Brompton Nano is just 14.4 kilos, the lightest electric to date and definitely a carryable proposition for many people.
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
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Manchester U.K.
Any more news on the electric brompton? Is the review out now then? I heard that it climbed 16% hills at 7-8mph, which I found a bit hard to swallow, unless the rider was about 70kg & putting in a fair effort of around 250W? Also, if peak torque at full throttle is at 10mph, that would either put the motor into its less efficient phase, or at 4/5 throttle mean a lower peak output power of ~300W tops? I estimate that 16% at that speed requires ~550W output even for combined rider & bike of 85-90kg.

Stuart