Cassette wear?

Avc97

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jul 10, 2020
6
0
I purchased my Liv Vall-e Pro (2018) 10 months ago. The bike has been approximately 300 miles, after 150/200 miles I had a few problems. When pedalling, in particular up a small hill, the pedals jump and ‘clunk’, this only seems to happen on the two smallest ones. Initially the jumping was only minor but in the last few weeks this has become a big problem, so much so that the bike itself has lost power and will only restart after removing and reinstalling the battery. The bike is mostly used on weekends around local forest trails and on relatively flat roads in the town.

I took the bike to Giant/Liv for a service and was told that there was slight wear to the cassette and they adjusted it. The problem still occurs. Is this normal for a bike that has done less than 300 miles?

Currently it has the ‘Shimano HG-M6000 11-42 T, 10-sp’, any advice on a reasonably priced alternative?

Any help is much appreciated!
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
10,684
4,380
did you bother to clean and lube the drive train after every ride?

if you just do not bother and need a lbs to adjust the gears then yes you can wear out gears on a cassette fast esp on a ebike.

have you got a chain checker as if worn can cause fast sprocket wear.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
1,627
361
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I purchased my Liv Vall-e Pro (2018) 10 months ago. The bike has been approximately 300 miles, after 150/200 miles I had a few problems. When pedalling, in particular up a small hill, the pedals jump and ‘clunk’, this only seems to happen on the two smallest ones. Initially the jumping was only minor but in the last few weeks this has become a big problem, so much so that the bike itself has lost power and will only restart after removing and reinstalling the battery. The bike is mostly used on weekends around local forest trails and on relatively flat roads in the town.

I took the bike to Giant/Liv for a service and was told that there was slight wear to the cassette and they adjusted it. The problem still occurs. Is this normal for a bike that has done less than 300 miles?

Currently it has the ‘Shimano HG-M6000 11-42 T, 10-sp’, any advice on a reasonably priced alternative?

Any help is much appreciated!
As Soundwave correctly mentioned, middle motor bikes are sadly liable to a much higher drive chain wear, and need constant maintenance to preclude such wear for as long as possible.
On middle motor e-bikes, the chain, cassette and front ring, pass ALL the motor power and ALL the rider's power as well, for which a normal bike chain and other components, was apparently never properly designed to do.
E-bike's with hub motors (front or back), pass all the motor power directly to the wheel itself via the spokes, not via the chain and its components.
On hub bikes, the cassette, chain and front ring ONLY pass the biker's power, just as in a normal pedal bike.
But due to the fact that the motor power passes to the driven wheel directly, most hub bike's chain drive, seen over long periods, probably actually pass less power, especially when the rider is not riding as strongly - or resting by free wheeling, and letting the motor take the strain!
This results on hub motor e-bikes, that the cassette, chain and front ring, wearing far less than any and all mid motor bikes, and usually even less than any conventional bike as well.....though that is not a given, as it depends on too many different rider factors.
And until middle motor bikes are drastically redesigned from scratch, to say supply motor power to the rear wheel directly (that must be possible!) and NOT via the chain, that problem, and a few others will remain - sadly for many mid motor bike owners.
It is and will remain a strong "Bone of contention" here on Pedelec and other biking web sites, one side criticizing the poor life of such mid drive systems (ME!), and the other ones who accept that it needs massive maintenance, because they actually own one!
The last people are often very vocal and rude, in them trying to "nay say" the problems, which are, once pointed out in a friendly and exact manner, are usually then obvious to even very un-mechanical people.
Sadly, I myself am regularly attacked in print, by such morons at least once a week here on Pedelec.
Its par for the course as I see it!
I then answer back in a similar manner, which sends them off like moronic sky rockets!
Wait up, they will start here soon.....
Basically, here on Pedelec sadly, several times a month, people with mid motor bike problems of one sort or another, come here as you did, trying to get a long term fix......but a 100% fix, IMHO, there is none, though your problems have come particularly early IMHO on your own bike.
Dear Avc97, if you wish to contact me privately here on Pedelec, I can supply you with further details and explanations, away from the "rebel rowsers."
But your choice either way of course.
If you don't know how to do that, just mention it here and I will contact you directly myself.
There is an excellent Personal Message service on Pedelec, that you can use to speak to one particular person, without any others spying on you, or what you write, and making rude unfriendly comments!!

Please notice that even though I know all the usual " Mid Motor Rowdies" here, I HAVE NOT MENTIONED A SINGLE NAME OR AVATAR OF ANY OF THEM! Up to now that is!!
Though of course they are well known by all members here.....just because of their exceedingly poor attitude and complete lack of basic human manners, and they will STILL feel that they are being directly addressed by name!!!!
Regards and best wishes for a great weekend
Andy
 
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georgehenry

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2015
927
860
Surrey
Andy is right about crank drive bikes wearing drive trains, ie your chain, rear cassette and chain much more than a rear hub drive bike.

However as you have what looks like after having a peak on google a nice hard tail mountain bike with a Yamaha motor and large battery all is not lost!

It does not sound like your gears were indexed perfectly to start with or needed a bit of adjustment after bedding in.

If that was the case there is every chance that you have damaged some of the teeth on some of the sprockets of your rear cassette. This is most likely to occur to the sprockets with the least teeth, ie the highest gears, the ones you use to go fast.

From the symptoms you describe I am afraid you probably need a new rear cassette.

If the bike shop you have used has not managed to index the gears well then you probably need to find another shop/independent bike mechanic who can.

I have a Yamaha system on my Haibike and have learnt to be careful changing gears, slightly backing off the power you put through the pedals. This is particularly true in the top two gears.

If you find that you are always riding in top gear then there is a case for increasing the gearing on your bike by fitting a larger chain ring so that you are not always riding in the smallest sprocket with the least teeth on the rear cassette as having the least teeth this is the sprocket most susceptible to wear.

There are now available wide ratio rear cassettes that allow you to increase your gearing, but still have an acceptably low ratio for climbing off road.

Where a crank drive bike really out performs a rear hub drive bike is off road the more technically difficult the better. A crank drive is also normally much better at climbing steep gradients. The weight distribution is normally better with the motor in the centre of the bike and the battery on/in the down tube. Crank drive bikes mostly use torque sensing drive systems and as these only add assistance in proportion to your own effort the range of these bikes is usually larger for a given battery size than a hub drive system.

I have both and love both but they have different characteristics, advantages and disadvantages.
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
6,944
2,674
Basildon
You can't wear out a cassette in 300 miles of normal riding, especially if you change gears. How many of those miles were done on the gears that were slipping. Maybe if you left in in top gear all the time and rode your bike only in deep sand, you might see some wear.

Something isn't right with your setup: The chain is too long, the B screw is incorrectly adjusted or the shifting isn't set right. Another thing that can cause it is a stone or other debris stuck between the gears.

You will notice that every tooth on the gears is a different shape. Some are normal teeth, some like shark's teeth and all sorts of differences. Don't let anybody tell you that that's wear. Compare it with a new one of the same type.
 

georgehenry

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2015
927
860
Surrey
I think having it all indexed and set up properly is important.

I destroyed my first cassette probably quicker than this person by using high assist levels and changing gear under power without backing off the effort I was making with my legs.

With the gearing I now run, 42 front chain ring and 12/36 rear cassette I average around 1,500 miles before I need to change my rear cassette and chain and change my narrow wide front chain ring every other time at around 3,000 miles. One cassette managed 2,200 miles and some have needed changing with under a 1,000 miles.

I expect a lot of my bike as I want it to work well off road and be able to climb a few quite steep and technical tracks, ie roots, small steps etc in my sandy area and carrry a heavy me 100kg + and two full ortleib panniers to work in the afternoon. The drive train gets dirty and I cannot clean it other than a squirt of lube at work.

I then expect it to work well on my 10 mile road ride home late at night where despite my higher gearing I am in gear 8 and 9 of my 9 speed system a lot to average around 20mph and get home in 30 minutes plus or minus a minute or two depending on weather conditions. It takes me about 15 minutes to get changed ready to ride home after my shift.

Riding home I never use more than the lowest assist of the three assist levels I have when riding in gear 8 or 9 and am still careful changing gear. However even on some gentle up gradients I can still maintain 20mph in gear 8 in the lowest assist. I do use my middle stronger assist level to climb the steeper hills I need to coming home in gears 7 and below to keep my speed up.

At the end of the day I do not ride my bike to work to save money but for the exercise and fun.

I am ashamed to say that one of my rear hub Oxygen bikes went close to seven years and countless miles on one drive train. It was very worn out when I changed it only recently but just kept working and never jumped gears.
 
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vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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Basildon
This is what a new cassette might look like. Look at the shape of the teeth. They're all slightly different. If you're in any doubt, find a Google image of your exact cassette you have and compare them:


Here's what a worn cassette looks like, which might cause chain jumping. Presumably, it was working OK up to that amount of wear. Compare it with the picture above:



I just searched Google for images of worn cassettes, and it showed me so much bullsh¦t from across all the bike forums, where people haven't a clue about cassette wear. Most of what's being said is a complete myth. Some examples show wear as a result of chain slip. It's not the wear that's causing the chain to slip.

Here's another real worn cassette, that was presumably working OK up to that point:


Your cassette can be very worn indeed before you experience any problems.

OP, post a picture of your chain from the side in top gear and in bottom gear, so that we can see whether the chain is too long.
 

BazP

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 8, 2017
325
160
70
Sheffield
I purchased my Liv Vall-e Pro (2018) 10 months ago. The bike has been approximately 300 miles, after 150/200 miles I had a few problems. When pedalling, in particular up a small hill, the pedals jump and ‘clunk’, this only seems to happen on the two smallest ones. Initially the jumping was only minor but in the last few weeks this has become a big problem, so much so that the bike itself has lost power and will only restart after removing and reinstalling the battery. The bike is mostly used on weekends around local forest trails and on relatively flat roads in the town.

I took the bike to Giant/Liv for a service and was told that there was slight wear to the cassette and they adjusted it. The problem still occurs. Is this normal for a bike that has done less than 300 miles?

Currently it has the ‘Shimano HG-M6000 11-42 T, 10-sp’, any advice on a reasonably priced alternative?

Any help is much appreciated!
Unlikely after only 300 miles but sticking pawls in the freewheel also cause this symptom.
 

Avc97

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jul 10, 2020
6
0
This is what a new cassette might look like. Look at the shape of the teeth. They're all slightly different. If you're in any doubt, find a Google image of your exact cassette you have and compare them:


Here's what a worn cassette looks like, which might cause chain jumping. Presumably, it was working OK up to that amount of wear. Compare it with the picture above:



I just searched Google for images of worn cassettes, and it showed me so much bullsh¦t from across all the bike forums, where people haven't a clue about cassette wear. Most of what's being said is a complete myth. Some examples show wear as a result of chain slip. It's not the wear that's causing the chain to slip.

Here's another real worn cassette, that was presumably working OK up to that point:


Your cassette can be very worn indeed before you experience any problems.

OP, post a picture of your chain from the side in top gear and in bottom gear, so that we can see whether the chain is too long.
Hi vfr400,
Thank you for your photos and reply. I’ve attached a few photos of my cassette as suggested. Hopefully they appear ok.
They don’t appear to be too worn? I generally use the smallest 4.
691EEA29-5F86-43E5-B7BF-3A68F004AC66.jpegB0FD6B3B-9836-43D8-AF2F-D4970F4F914F.jpeg4FB8F941-6D0F-4A23-B424-B979DBA7D124.jpeg
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
6,944
2,674
Basildon
Hardly any wear. You can just a out make out some damage from the chain jumping.

Show some pictures of the chain from the side in top and bottom gear.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
10,684
4,380
cassette looks fine to me as cant see any wear at all.
 

Avc97

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jul 10, 2020
6
0
Hardly any wear. You can just a out make out some damage from the chain jumping.

Show some pictures of the chain from the side in top and bottom gear.
I’ve attached further photos, hopefully this helps.
I’ve just ridden the bike down the road, unfortunately no hills nearby to test further. It jumps when setting off in various gears and power modes but does not when in eco mode or with no battery attached. unsure if this is an issue with the motor? 071BCBE1-D83D-43C8-A9AB-02A901F26B77.jpegB428B598-5420-4498-85C5-3C0D7CFE6AEE.jpeg6C46FE1C-B628-46DA-8CF1-EE4CD1AA8053.jpeg7461D272-EE39-4F22-9E09-A2BB9E9C69F1.jpeg5AF22D3A-FAD7-48C5-990F-7271EBA782BB.jpeg4ED1B08F-F647-42F8-A5CC-6BA5FD5E5F1B.jpegCA372AA3-CC00-4450-8433-B7BED98D3378.jpeg
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
1,627
361
74
did you bother to clean and lube the drive train after every ride?

if you just do not bother and need a lbs to adjust the gears then yes you can wear out gears on a cassette fast esp on a ebike.

have you got a chain checker as if worn can cause fast sprocket wear.
Something possibly similar to this?:-Bike Chain Checker 1.jpg
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
10,684
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i got this one
 

georgehenry

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2015
927
860
Surrey
I think you raise an interesting question. My Yamaha motored entry level hard tail Haibike was around £500 cheaper than the Bosch motored equivalent when I bought it in 2015.

Whether it is something to do with the motor characteristics anecdotally and also my own experience is that the Yamaha motor wears the two smallest cogs with the least teeth faster than the Bosch.

The Bosch has interrupt technology that is designed to make changing gear kinder for the rear cassette and this may well make a difference.

If you used your mountain bike mostly off road you would not spend a disproportionate amount of time in the top two gears and probably not get these problems as noticeably or at an acceptably higher mileage when the whole cassette had become more worn out.

I got my bike to be able to ride to work cross country where I am hardly ever in the two top gears apart from a couple of short connecting country lane bits that get me from one bit of off road track to another. I am lucky that my off road route is nearly all off road.

However I ride home on the road and then spent much more time in the top two gears and came across the same problem as you, irrespective of how the cassette looked it started to jump in the top two gears.

I have a 9 speed system and basically got around the problem by using cheap shimano rear cassettes with as wide a spread of ratios as that cheap cassette could offer, in my case 12/36 and increased the gearing of my bike by experimenting with larger front chain rings until I found the best gearing for me. This was a 42 tooth chain ring with the above cassette.

This gave me a low enough bottom gear for the steepest off road hills I climb on my off road route to work and a gear 8, 14 tooth cog that could hold over 20 mph with me pedaling hard up gentle gradients, and a 12 tooth top gear cog that could reach around 23.5 mph in eco with me pedaling hard on flatter gradients.

I still need to be careful changing gear, have my gears indexed well, and do not use higher than eco assist in the top two gears. Used in this way me rear cassettes last around 1,500 miles, sometimes more and sometimes a bit less.

I now only use my Haibike to ride to work on my off road route, 14 miles off road and then 10 miles back on the road, I use an old cadence sensor rear hub Oxygen Emate when my shift times mean riding on the road both to and from work.

The cassette I use is cheap to buy, around Christmas time I found them on amazon prime being sold for £12.95 delivered so bought a few. When I change the cassette I also change the chain and every other time the front chain ring and for all the fun I get riding the bike accept the greater wear to the drive train that my Yamaha crank drive inflicts.

A bike mechanic I know at a big ebike dealership told me that The Yamaha motor is much more reliable than the Bosch, ie they get far fewer issues on Yamaha motored bikes than Bosch.
 
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vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
6,944
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Basildon
Please, please, please, show the photos I've already asked for twice, so that we can judge the chain length, which is most likely the cause of your problems.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
10,684
4,380
also check that the cassette is not loose and fully tightened also check the mech hanger screw for the same.

if the gears are fully indexed and the b screw is set right there is not much more to check bar the chains wear and length.

and a side on pic would be good lol