confusing claims

[nightrider]

I see on the 50 cycles website 2016 intrgale bikes both 350 and 250 wh, giving the same potential mileage claim, we all know this is a rough estimate, but I can't understand how they can both give the same mileage-125 miles.If this is true how can the integral 350 wh give more than double the mileage of the impulse 350 models?

 

[trex]

The motor power rating has negligible effect on the power consumption on flat roads.
It's a torque sensor bike, you have to input the difference between what the bike needs to move and what the battery gives. I think the range is given in optimal conditions with speed at around 12mph-13mph, no headwind and on eco setting (maximum rider's input) which is 50% assist.
The power consumption goes up as you ride faster because the air resistance is proportial to speed to the power of 3. At 15mph, the power consumption rises to 180Wh/15m=12Wh/m - the range will be thus reduced to 612/6= 102 miles.
At 28 mph, power consumption is 840Wh/28m = 30Wh/m - the range will be reduced to 612/15 = 41 miles. The power required to move the bike at 28 mph is 840W, most people can't contribute as much as half the required power (480W), so they will have to abandon the eco mode setting. At 80% assist, the range will be reduced to 612Wh/(30Wh/m*0.8)=25.5 miles.
There is negligible difference in power consumption on flat roads between different motor types (crank drive, geard hub and direct drive), the data on power consumption is from ebikes.ca.

 

[JohnCade]

Basically all these mileage claims from almost all the dealers are complete bol*ocks. You can go as far as you can pedal if you turn the motor off and in Eco on my Kalkhoff it isn’t that far from being off anyway.

 

[KirstinS]

The motor power rating has negligible effect on the power consumption on flat roads.
It's a torque sensor bike, you have to input the difference between what the bike needs to move and what the battery gives. I think the range is given in optimal conditions with speed at around 12mph-13mph, no headwind and on eco setting (maximum rider's input) which is 50% assist.
The power consumption goes up as you ride faster because the air resistance is proportial to speed to the power of 3. At 15mph, the power consumption rises to 180Wh/15m=12Wh/m - the range will be thus reduced to 612/6= 102 miles.
At 28 mph, power consumption is 840Wh/28m = 30Wh/m - the range will be reduced to 612/15 = 41 miles. The power required to move the bike at 28 mph is 840W, most people can't contribute as much as half the required power (480W), so they will have to abandon the eco mode setting. At 80% assist, the range will be reduced to 612Wh/(30Wh/m*0.8)=25.5 miles.
There is negligible difference in power consumption on flat roads between different motor types (crank drive, geard hub and direct drive), the data on power consumption is from ebikes.ca.

Great explanation, Cheers trex

 

[Tomtomato]

You will never get 125 miles with assistance on, on a Kalkhoff.

I have a 17Ah battery (biggest battery capacity available), and I can probably do up to 90-100 miles, on a flat terrain, no wind, using Eco assistance all the way, with some pedaling (which is already a good distance).

There is a significant difference on mine between assistance being off, and eco mode (lowest level). The bike is heavy and going quite slowly without any assistance.

 

[nightrider]

The motor power rating has negligible effect on the power consumption on flat roads.
It's a torque sensor bike, you have to input the difference between what the bike needs to move and what the battery gives. I think the range is given in optimal conditions with speed at around 12mph-13mph, no headwind and on eco setting (maximum rider's input) which is 50% assist.
The power consumption goes up as you ride faster because the air resistance is proportial to speed to the power of 3. At 15mph, the power consumption rises to 180Wh/15m=12Wh/m - the range will be thus reduced to 612/6= 102 miles.
At 28 mph, power consumption is 840Wh/28m = 30Wh/m - the range will be reduced to 612/15 = 41 miles. The power required to move the bike at 28 mph is 840W, most people can't contribute as much as half the required power (480W), so they will have to abandon the eco mode setting. At 80% assist, the range will be reduced to 612Wh/(30Wh/m*0.8)=25.5 miles.
There is negligible difference in power consumption on flat roads between different motor types (crank drive, geard hub and direct drive), the data on power consumption is from ebikes.ca.

 

[nightrider]

OK thanks trex, very informative.

 

[RobF]

Ten or 12 w/h per mile is a good guide for any ebike - in not too adverse conditions on a lowish power setting.

Thus the 400w/h batteries on my Bosch bike are good for about 40 miles.

Up the power or speed, fight a headwind, or do a lot of climbing and you could half the range.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I must be a very strong pedaller still! I get much more than that out of my battery which is 374 Wh. I should be getting 50 km but regularly see between 65 and 70 and it sure ain't flat around here. On Friday I rode from Lasarte to Saint-Jean-de-Luz which, with the 14 km ride to the station beforehand, was a 64 km ride and the battery gage is showing two bars and a voltage of 36 V at home...

 

[Tomtomato]

Ten or 12 w/h per mile is a good guide for any ebike - in not too adverse conditions on a lowish power setting.

Apart from the fact that I get 90 miles from a 612wh battery (Kalkhoff 17Ah), so it's more like 7wh per mile for my bike (crank drive). I think hub-driven bikes would be different, with the rider assisting a lot less.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Apart from the fact that I get 90 miles from a 612wh battery (Kalkhoff 17Ah), so it's more like 7wh per mile for my bike (crank drive). I think hub-driven bikes would be different, with the rider assisting a lot less.

There is no difference in the assistance the rider can give just where the motor is applying it's assistance. The PAS setting is all important with a hub motor. As I got stronger I just turned the level of assistance down and now ride a lot more in level 1 (60W) or 2 (125W) . If I am calculating correctly I am getting about 5.75 Wh per kilometre more or less.

 

[Tomtomato]

I disagree: crank-driven bikes tend to require more input from the rider, and usually don't have a throttle. Mine has a torque sensor, meaning that the harder I pedal, the more assistance I get, hence optimising the battery range.

Also, crank-driven bikes are usually more efficient, because they leverage the bike gears.

 

[RobF]

Rider fitness comes into it.

I'm a bit fitter now than when I started ebiking and can get just over 50 miles from my Rose/Bosch, which equates to 8w/h per mile.

That's mostly on eco with little wind and not much climbing.

The question is usually asked by someone new to ebiking who will probably not have much cycle fitness, and will probably want more assistance than eco.

I reckon it's fairer to advise such people to expect ten or 12w/h per mile.

 

[anotherkiwi]

It is true you have to be in the right gear at the right time on a hub powered bike. I have learnt this since June which means that now I can climb practically anything - especially in my 34 tooth granny gear...

Inversely the more the rider inputs on a hub motor the less power it has to provide - so less noise, less heat and better range because less Watts burned... I am not arguing about better or not better just that + rider input = battery economy whether hub or BB motor

 

[flecc]

Basically all these mileage claims from almost all the dealers are complete bol*ocks. You can go as far as you can pedal if you turn the motor off and in Eco on my Kalkhoff it isn’t that far from being off anyway.

Indeed. When Kalkhoff first launched pedelecs with the 2007 Panasonic and 260 Wh battery, they did a publicity stunt with a team of three riders who completed 100 miles with a single charge on a cycle track. That 2.6 Wh per mile meant they were scarcely getting assistance, they were just three very fit cyclists and it proved nothing about the bikes.
.

 

[georgehenry]

I ride a Haibike sDuro HardSeven SL 2015 Yamaha that I bought in March this year.

Using eco on my 12/13 mile mostly off road ride to work I have about 62% battery left when I arrive at work. Blasting the 10 miles home on my hilly B Road at 20+ miles an hour in standard I have about 52% battery left when I get home. I top my battery up at work and am a 17 stone + guy with two loaded panniers.

I did manage 30 miles on a fun mostly off road leisure ride including lots of very challenging hill climbs and by managing the way I rode the bike found the controller telling me I was about to deplete the battery 200 yards from home.

After 7 months and 1600 miles I have so far seen no noticeable degradation in the battery. I look after my battery by bringing it into the house after every ride and charging it if I am going to use the bike the next day. If I am not going to use the bike for a number of days it will have over 50% remaining after my ride home from work and I store it without topping it back up in a warm dry cupboard and then charge it up again on the day I next ride.

I understand that with lithium iron batteries it is best to keep them topped up while you are regularly riding them whether you ride a short distance or close to their maximum range.