Crank drive - mid-drive vs. hub motor (Woosh Big Bear / Krieger)

[Tomtomato]

Hi,

I am considering those two bikes:

• Woosh Big Bear (front hub motor)
• Woosh Krieger (mid, crank drive)

Both have the same large 15 AH battery, but I believe they may feel very different when riding:

• Bikes powered by hub motors might feel more like a "moped", as there is no connection between the manual pedals and motor
  
• Bikes powered by mid-drives feel more like a proper bike, with gear changes etc. It also look like the Krieger can cover more distance than the Big Bear, as I am assuming the motor is more efficient leveraging the gears. Maintenance of the two wheels is easier, as standard bike components

Sounds like riding a crank drive bike might be more rewarding, but also more difficult to manage gear changes.

Anything else to consider?

Thanks,
T.

 

[One_Box]

Definitely take both bikes for a test ride! You need to see which suits YOU best.

 

[trex]

I am partisan to crank drive. The krieger is a better bike.

 

[Jimod]

I have 2 hub drive bikes and my wife has crank drive. Neither type feels like a moped. The crank drive just drives the chain which turns the wheel, the hub turns the wheel direct. The pedals on both systems are secondary. On my 3 bikes, you can sit and turn the pedals slowly and the motors still drive the bike just the same. Or, you can pedal hard as you like and the motor assists you.

The advice about trying both types and buying what suits YOU is the best advice you'll get on here.

 

[Tomtomato]

I have tested several bikes now, including some with crank drives and torque sensors. Those feel a lot more like a normal bike, and still require some effort, which seems just multiplied. It's just like being in very good form.

I have decided to get a crank drive one, but it won't be the Woosh Krieger, as it has a major flaw in term of changing gears. The more advanced crank drive systems (Bosch, Kalkhoff Impulse 2) can sense a change of gear and cut the motor for a fraction of a second. However, any bike with one of those systems will probably cost at least twice the price of the Krieger.

 

[trex]

you can buy a gear sensor (£35) here:
http://www.alcedoitalia.it/shop/accessori/sensore-cut-off-cambio-per-bafang-bbs/

 

[Tomtomato]

Good to know. If this is only £40, it's surprising that they don't offer it as an option, given the strain on the chain for crank driven electric bikes.

I am not sure if this is easy to install by end users, and how this integrates/connects with the bike electronics, to cut the motor off.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I have tested several bikes now, including some with crank drives and torque sensors. Those feel a lot more like a normal bike, and still require some effort, which seems just multiplied. It's just like being in very good form.

I have decided to get a crank drive one, but it won't be the Woosh Krieger, as it has a major flaw in term of changing gears. The more advanced crank drive systems (Bosch, Kalkhoff Impulse 2) can sense a change of gear and cut the motor for a fraction of a second. However, any bike with one of those systems will probably cost at least twice the price of the Krieger.

The switches on the Kalkhoff are a definite improvement, but they still don't solve it completely.

A lot of people like torque control bikes like the Kalkhoff because they feel like an unpowered bike, but remember, you decided that a normal bike was not enough. On a long steep hill, even with good electric assist, your legs get tired. When you can no longer press the pedals hard, the power from the motor will drop off too because it multiplies your torque. Don't forget that 4 × 0 = 0.

 

[trex]

Good to know. If this is only £40, it's surprising that they don't offer it as an option, given the strain on the chain for crank driven electric bikes.

I am not sure if this is easy to install by end users, and how this integrates/connects with the bike electronics, to cut the motor off.

the gear sensor goes inline with the gear cable, it's a 10 minute job.
http://gearsensor.com/

The sensor acts like a brake sensor.

Woosh have made a gear sensor last year. The woosh gear sensor is a tiny Hall device, about the size of a pea, and installed inside the rapid fire gear shifter. It works OK but they did not progress it further because there is not much demand for it. I guess it costs about £1 to make.

 

[Tomtomato]

Woosh have made a gear sensor last year. The woosh gear sensor is a tiny Hall device, about the size of a pea, and installed inside the rapid fire gear shifter. It works OK but they did not progress it further because there is not much demand for it. I guess it costs about £1 to make.

Reading the instructions on their website on how to carefully change gears on the Krieger (like braking before changing gear, which is not natural), I can only assume that their system was not efficient or working well, if its cost is negligible and they still don't include it.

The fact that all major crank drive manufacturer included such system is their v2 releases would indicate that it's a useful device to have.

 

[trex]

I agree, it is a useful device to have. The woosh gear sensor was installed in their Sport CD demo bike in Southend. I guess it only fits the Rapid Fire shifter, woosh have only two bikes fitted with this shifter. Most of their bikes have the Tourney 7-speed shitfer. Another reason, according to my source, is that the gear sensor is part of a larger project that they are still working on.

 

[JohnCade]

The switches on the Kalkhoff are a definite improvement, but they still don't solve it completely.

A lot of people like torque control bikes like the Kalkhoff because they feel like an unpowered bike, but remember, you decided that a normal bike was not enough. On a long steep hill, even with good electric assist, your legs get tired. When you can no longer press the pedals hard, the power from the motor will drop off too because it multiplies your torque. Don't forget that 4 × 0 = 0.

I decided a normal bike wasn’t enough because I hadn’t ridden a bike for about five years. But It was because I’d had a series of operations that I’d stopped and lost my bike fitness; and trying to ride it again afterwards in the very hilly area I live was like pedalling in syrup. I’m a lot more bike fit now and could ride that bike now, but I’ve got used to putting in a similar effort and going much faster. So I’m not sure I want to grind my way slowly uphill unpowered anymore at my age. It’s much more fun putting in a similar effort but going up like a train.

You would have to be totally zonked not to be able to turn the pedals at all and not be able to go on with a TS bike. Even just turning them over in the right gear with hardly any effort will get me up a hill at a similar speed as my last unpowered MB putting in a lot more effort. But what I like is the way it replicates the sensation of riding a normal bike but going uphill faster than I could thirty odd years ago.

Personally I don’t want a sort of electric moped. For what I want from an e bike there would be no point. I just want a bike for fun rides and to keep fit.

 

[RobF]

Reading the instructions on their website on how to carefully change gears on the Krieger (like braking before changing gear, which is not natural), I can only assume that their system was not efficient or working well, if its cost is negligible and they still don't include it.

I have a first generation Bosch derailleur bike which has no gear changing gadget as far as I know.

Gear changing is no problem, I soft pedal changes as I would on an unpowered bike.

The Bosch system is renowned for responding to pedal input - sometimes when you don't want it to - so when I soft pedal the system turns the motor wick down.

Looks like the Krieger doesn't work in quite the same way for gear changes, so neither will it ride in quite the same way.

I suggest the OP tests a Bosch or Kalkhoff/Impulse bike for the true crank drive experience.

 

[trex]

the Krieger still has the same soft start/stop of power on/off typical of Lishui controllers but is programmed with shorter timing in comparison with previous woosh CDs. Before, the timing was programmed for 360 degrees on the cranks, now 90 degrees.

 

[RobF]

the Krieger still has the same soft start/stop of power on/off typical of Lishui controllers but is programmed with shorter timing in comparison with previous woosh CDs. Before, the timing was programmed for 360 degrees on the cranks, now 90 degrees.

I take it the shorter timing means a faster response to pedal input.

Sounds good, if so.

 

[Tomtomato]

I suggest the OP tests a Bosch or Kalkhoff/Impulse bike for the true crank drive experience.

OP (i.e. me!) has tried the Bosch and Kalkhoff systems and has decided to go for a Kalkhoff impulse 2 bike, instead of a Woosh one.

The Woosh Big Bear seems to be basically an electric scooter, so not a good fit for me.

The Woosh Krieger looks interesting, but has a few limitations, and I won't be able to test it anyway. Also, some people have reported issues happening quite quickly. None of the Woosh shops are nearby, so I can't risk having to drive several hours every time there is an issue.

The Kalkhoff Impulse 2 bike is a premium product at a premium price (unfortunately stretching my original budget quite a bit!), and I have a shop nearby.

 

[RobF]

OP (i.e. me!) has tried the Bosch and Kalkhoff systems and has decided to go for a Kalkhoff impulse 2 bike, instead of a Woosh one.

The Woosh Big Bear seems to be basically an electric scooter, so not a good fit for me.

The Woosh Krieger looks interesting, but has a few limitations, and I won't be able to test it anyway. Also, some people have reported issues happening quite quickly. None of the Woosh shops are nearby, so I can't risk having to drive several hours every time there is an issue.

The Kalkhoff Impulse 2 bike is a premium product at a premium price (unfortunately stretching my original budget quite a bit!), and I have a shop nearby.

I agree woosh bikes can suffer from niggly faults.

Of course, any bike can, but by throwing more money in to get a Kalkhoff you are weighing the reliability odds more heavily in your favour.

You are also getting a nicely made, quality bicycle.

That's not so important to some buyers, but it is to me.

The only thing I don't like about Kalkhoffs is they use Dunlop/Woods valves on the tubes.

Those valves do the job in the sense they let air in and keep it there, but they are harder to set pressure and not all pumps will inflate them.

Easy enough to change to schrader.

I would ask the shop to do that, even if it costs yet more money.

 

[trex]

....
The Kalkhoff Impulse 2 bike is a premium product at a premium price (unfortunately stretching my original budget quite a bit!), and I have a shop nearby.

can't beat having a shop nearby, although you are unlikely going to need them much, the Kalkhoff are very well built as you would expect.
The Krieger is a cracking bike, my favourite of all the bikes from woosh.