Cycling safety v cars v motorcycles

[The Maestro]

Was just having this discussion with one of my cycling friends from work and was wondering what people's opinions on the subject here are.

The official government figures I've read say that motorcyclists are 50 times more likely to be involved in a fatal accident or suffer serious injury than a car driver, and cyclist are 4 times safer than motorcycles. So that makes cycling pretty dangerous compared to driving a car but a lot safer than motorcycling.

Of course these are statistics over the entire UK and an individual cyclist or motorcyclist may have a riding style that bucks the trend which is why I hate these kind of statistics.

In my subjective opinion having been cycling since I was about 5, riding a motorcycle for 10 years and driving cars for 5 years I have to say that I find cycling by far the most dangerous, or at least it feels the most dangerous. I've probably covered the most amount of miles motorcycling in my life and I've never had a sniff of an accident and always feel perfectly safe and in command of the road. I use the motorcycle's speed, small size and acceleration to stay well clear of cars and go around bends very slowly rather than trying to get my 'knee down'. I put my motorcycling safety record down to this riding behaviour. Had a few minor accidents in cars - a couple of people going into the back of me and once I reversed into someone (very shaken up) after some lunatic ran me off the road. However cycling it seems every few days I have an 'issue' - I wouldn't say 'near death experience' but I would say 'potentially dangerous situation'. Maybe this is just my perception like my perception of the most dangerous road users (i.e. people not looking and pulling out on you, driving erratically or too slowly) always seem to be women, old folk and ethnic minorities (just my experience). I find it odd that my road experiences often seem at odds with official statisics and wondered what others thought. Do the statistics for cycling actually take into account distance travelled or just the fact that just about everyone in the UK is a 'cyclist' i.e owns a bike but rarely uses it?

 

[Ian Harwood]

I ride very defensively. I rarely make right turns at busy junctions, preferring to get off and push if necessary. I'll take to the pavement sometimes if it's safer when there's no pedestrians (fairly common situation on my commute, although some years ago I jumped up onto the pavement to get out of the way of a wagon, caught the kerb and landed in a hedge!) When I come up to T-junctions I always make sure i've got eye contact with emerging drivers before progressing.

 

[fishingpaul]

I would also think motorcycles more dangerous due to the extra speed they travel at,especially the smaller engined bikes and scooters,i know i am contradicting myself here regarding the extra speed, but i feel more powerfull bikes can help get you out of trouble with quick acceleration.when cycling i wear a hi viz jacket at night and try to stay off main roads even if it is a little longer,sometimes i use the pavement it seems to be ok in birmingham(even police cyclists use the pavement here),anything to try to reduce risk and feel safer.

 

[rooel]

"...try to stay off main roads even if it is a little longer..."

One of the advantages of the electrically assisted bike: you can choose a quieter, but perhaps longer and hillier route, without serious loss of time or expenditure of extra (personal) energy.

 

[flecc]

From this long time biker and cyclist, perceptions can differ widely from reality.

Motorcycle speed and superiority over other traffic gives a feeling of being in command, but the reality is that bikers are very vulnerable to running into others who don't see them with lethal outcomes.

In contrast cyclists are constantly being overtaken, giving a feeling of being vulnerable to being hit by other traffic and therefore not in command, where in reality most road users responsibly avoid hitting cyclists. The cyclist can dominate and control traffic more than many think by taking advantage of the fear that other road users have of colliding with one.
.

 

[Ian Harwood]

Off at a slight tangent, but still relavent I hope. Many years ago I cycled from near Altrincham to my sisters house in Warrington along the Bridgwater Canal towpath (even though I shouldn't have). All the way there with the canal on my left I felt very unsafe on the uneven, slippery and narrow path, yet on the way home I felt no unease at all. When I thought about it some more I realised that I was conditioned as a cyclist to having "safety" to my left and "danger" to my right.

 

[flecc]

That's a very good point Ian, and it's reflected in the nervousness many cyclists feel when they have to move to the centre of a multi-lane road to turn right, leaving traffic whizzing past them on the left.
.

 

[The Maestro]

My cycling style could possibly considered aggressive in some respects. I will go through red lights at pedestrian crossings if there is no-one there and will take left turns through red lights most of the time. I will sometimes go through red lights at junctions VERY cautiously if there is little or no traffic. However these are not in my experience what lead to dangerous situations. I find that taking to the pavement is probably the riskiest slightly non legal activity because unless you are very careful you could put pedestrians at risk and I find that rejoining the road after being on the pavement quite risky and frustrating. Also filtering through slow moving or stationary traffic is risky (door in the face), although I always filtered through traffic on a motorbike without much problem except I knocked someone's wing mirror off who was driving a 20 year old Datsun who claimed I owed them 500 quid even though their car was worth about 50p. Mainly though its just cars and buses getting too close as well as the cycle paths/curb side being blocked by parked cars, broken glass, man holes etc. Having to take very inventive routes to stay out of trouble often pays off but (in my case) can be a mistake (may be just me). I think a lot of this depends on the town you live in. In Preston where I live they have very poor excuses for cycle lanes that often end abruptly and force cyclists to yield every few hundred meters which lead to impatience and frustration.

 

[flecc]

The Maestro, I bet you don't have a mirror.

Am I right?
.

 

[The Maestro]

The Maestro, I bet you don't have a mirror.

Am I right?
.

No I don't but in a way I find that glancing over you shoulder a lot actually makes traffic coming past you take a wider birth because they think you might pull out. I was considering a mirror but I didn't like the thought of seeing an 18 wheeler loom up behind me. The sound is bad enough :'(

 

[flecc]

I knew you didn't have one because of the things that worried you. Believe me, get one, it's a revelation, and I'm in a London outer borough where the traffic is both very heavy and fast.

Long ago when cycling with a hooded jacket in rain and only seeing the inside of the hood when glancing round, I got my first mirror specifically for that situation.

How wrong I was. Now I use it continuously, timing my arrival at pinch points and the like to coincide with the spaces between cars, making my journey much faster and safer, and timing like that is easy on an e-bike.

Approaching a tight bend, there's plenty of warning of the car behind that's going to arrive at the bend entry with you and squeeze you into the kerb, so again easily avoided. Those are only a couple of the situations where mirrors are best and I would never ride without one again, since it's not only faster and safer, it helps drivers too.

As one forum wag put it, "Since I got a mirror I've never looked back".
.

 

[The Maestro]

I knew you didn't have one because of the things that worried you. Believe me, get one, it's a revelation, and I'm in a London outer borough where the traffic is both very heavy and fast.

Long ago when cycling with a hooded jacket in rain and only seeing the inside of the hood when glancing round, I got my first mirror specifically for that situation.

How wrong I was. Now I use it continuously, timing my arrival at pinch points and the like to coincide with the spaces between cars, making my journey much faster and safer, and timing like that is easy on an e-bike.

Approaching a tight bend, there's plenty of warning of the car behind that's going to arrive at the bend entry with you and squeeze you into the kerb, so again easily avoided. Those are only a couple of the situations where mirrors are best and I would never ride without one again, since it's not only faster and safer, it helps drivers too.

As one forum wag put it, "Since I got a mirror I've never looked back".
.

I will definately give it a try as I respect your experience, many times I think a jugganaut is going to give me about 6" of clearance but actually they give me a lot more. The odd one, actually buses mostly do give very little clearance often and I think looking in a side mirror may scare the hell out of me but I will give it a try

 

[HarryB]

From this long time biker and cyclist, perceptions can differ widely from reality.

Motorcycle speed and superiority over other traffic gives a feeling of being in command, but the reality is that bikers are very vulnerable to running into others who don't see them with lethal outcomes.

In contrast cyclists are constantly being overtaken, giving a feeling of being vulnerable to being hit by other traffic and therefore not in command, where in reality most road users responsibly avoid hitting cyclists. The cyclist can dominate and control traffic more than many think by taking advantage of the fear that other road users have of colliding with one.
.

I certainly felt a lot safer on a motorbike or scooter than I do on a bicycle. You are right about it being about the control aspect. On a motorcycle the most likely accident is a car pulling out in front of you, mostly from a side turning. But it never happened to me in all the years I rode a bike. If I didn't make eye contact I would slow right down and therefore I was always felt in control. I don't feel any such control on a bicycle.

Having said that the most life threatening accident I have had was on a motorcycle many years ago. On a country road in Devon, a driver decided it was OK to overtake a coach mid-bend, unfortunately I was coming the other way. I wasn't motoring thank goodness and took to the grass verge but so did the driver. A head on collision is unpleasant - especially as I thought my pillion had been killed. We all walked away with, 'soft tissue' damage but it gave me a different perspective on motorcycling. I was never as confident on a bike again and never rode on country roads - although I did ride in town, feeling reasonably safe.

 

[Caph]

'potentially dangerous situation'

I was waiting to turn right off a busy road on to a side street not long ago. Another motorist was waiting on the side street to turn right on to the main road. We both waited for a minute or two for a break in the traffic, his car being about 3 metres away from mine with his headlights resting straight on the side of my car with my indicator going. There is also a very bright streetlight directly over that junction. As soon as there was a break in the traffic I started to turn in to the side street and as I was doing so, much to my incredulity, I noticed he was starting to pull out too aiming straight for me. There was nothing I could do as he just drove straight through the front of my car and pushed it out the way. He claims he never saw me. That day I was in my car and he wrote it off, most days I take that exact same turn on my bike. You can be the most defensive rider in the world but you'd still be seriously injured if not dead in those circumstances. It's those moments that really bring it home to me how dangerous cycling can be.

 

[andyh2]

I found some very depressing stats a while ago that showed walking and cycling both as more dangerous than driving a car and motorcycling always tops the death and injury leagues. Buses and trains are safest on a per journey basis with flying safest on a distance travelled basis.

Of course we're also given the 'heartening' statistics that whilst cycling is more dangerous than car driving from a travelling perspective it is safer from a lifestyle perspective. ie even though we are more likely to be killed riding a bike than driving a car the positive health effects of cycling mean that overall mortality is reduced. (Actually overall mortality is the same as we're all going to go , but on average people that cycle live longer than those who don't, inspite of higher injury and death rates.)

Globally it is pretty shocking;
1.2 MILLION people are killed and 50 MILLION injured on roads.
Road deaths is the biggest cause of death amongst 10-24 year olds.

It's amazing really, there's all the concern and resources put into anti terrorism, but we accept running each other over on a regular basis.
We call it an 'accident' when a motor vehicle collides with a pedestrian or cyclist. To me it is absolutely incredible that we are so car obsessed as to accept this state of affairs. Surely we should all be able to expect to move around using our own bodies (pedelecs included in this of course ) and be safe.

I say all this as a driver, who like millions of others on a regular basis gets into a machine with which I could kill someone with a moments lapse of concentration. It's easy and nearly all of us do it, but I don't have a comfortable answer if I ask myself if anything I do is so important as to take that risk.

And Another Thing I'm sure it skews all sorts of service decisions. Like concentrating health resources so many people have to spend considerable time and expense traveling. I'm not sure if the Health Sevice were to pay for travel cost and time for patients AND visitors how economic the increasingly centralised services would be.

So to sum up (rant winding up now !)we really should be prioritising safe walking and cycling routes. Or perhaps a better way would be to return to the original system whereby a motor vehicle had a max allowed speed of 5mph and had to be preceded by someone waving a red flag

 

[flecc]

I will definately give it a try as I respect your experience, many times I think a jugganaut is going to give me about 6" of clearance but actually they give me a lot more. The odd one, actually buses mostly do give very little clearance often and I think looking in a side mirror may scare the hell out of me but I will give it a try

I promise you won't regret it, and you'll be surprised how the certainty actually speeds your journey once you get used to it and use it to best advantage.

The BM500G has a slim insert fitting that's ok for most bars:

Mirrors
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Manufacturer.aspx?W=0&Cat=cycle&Manufacturer=Cateye&CategoryName=Mirrors .

 

[Ian Harwood]

I've had this discussion about cycling on the pavement before with people. I think they struggle with the concept if they live in city areas where there are always people walking. In the 'burbs at times it's perfectly safe to use the footpath for short stretches where there are no pedestrians, and if there are, you respect them by stopping and getting off. As for going through red lights that's got to be a no no under any circumstances. Get off and push round the corner if you're in that much of a hurry.

 

[flecc]

It's amazing really, there's all the concern and resources put into anti terrorism, but we accept running each other over on a regular basis.
We call it an 'accident' when a motor vehicle collides with a pedestrian or cyclist. To me it is absolutely incredible that we are so car obsessed as to accept this state of affairs.

You are so right Andy, it's almost unbelievable the way this is accepted.

There may be hope though. I've just heard the observation in a radio program that scrapping Concorde and supersonic travel was the first time in history that humans have opted for a return to lower speeds. It then occurred that our progressive enforcement and acceptance of ever lower speed limits has been in the same vein, so perhaps the trend really has reversed and we're moving towards a more human pace of travel.

When I first took to the roads there was no open road speed limit, just a few 30 limits mainly in town. Now we have 70 and 60 limits on open roads, the 50 limit has almost vanished with 40 mostly taking it's place, and 20 limits are becoming common in many urban locations. There's even been proposals that all residential areas throughout the whole of London become permanent 24 hour 20 limit zones.
.

 

[Footie]

When riding my VN800 very few cars pass me. In fact most drivers seem to be happy dawdling along at about 45mph. They usually speed up when a big bike comes up behind them (maybe their embarrassed about going so slow). However, it doesn't take long for their small minds to wander and after a mile or so they usually slow down again - it's at this point I get fed up with them and overtake.

Many moons ago (when still in short trousers) I cut my teeth (motorcycling terms) on a number of small bikes (Suzuki A100, Honda 90, FZ50). None were fast bikes. However, I quickly learned that the most dangerous ones were the ones with no power and prone to being overtaken. I had more near miss on the 30mph-restricted bikes because of incompetent car, lorry and bus drivers than on any other type of bike.

My travels on my ebike are likewise fraught with danger - mainly through ignorant and thoughtless drivers. I especially have a dislike for the stupid drivers who don't consider the width of their trailer. Just the other day I was cycling along at about 15mph when a Range Rover pulling a horsebox overtook me. The horsebox was about 18 inches wider than the Range Rover but the incompetent woman driver seemed oblivious to the fact. The box actually brushed my arm as it passed at about 50mph.

The scariest thing I think is the uncertainty that had she knocked me into the ditch would she have noticed and would she have stopped? Sadly, I have my doubts.

I just wish everyone was as good a driver as I am
.

 

[The Maestro]

The scariest thing I think is the uncertainty that had she knocked me into the ditch would she have noticed and would she have stopped? Sadly, I have my doubts.


.

I doubt she would have noticed or stopped or even got punished for it if she knocked you off. I'm guilty myself in a car, you really switch off because you aren't in touch with the elements. I'd always pull out and give a bike a car width or there abouts but in packed two lane traffic and you can't pull out much I have to admit I have in the past gone past a bike giving only a few feet of room rather than hanging back.