Cyclotricity, help fault finding

[Fw190]

Hi, Just regesterd on the site and I don't really know much about ebikes but have some knowledge of electrical systems and have been asked to have a look at a cyclotricity conversion, I believe it is a 1KW motor, which is mounted in the rear wheel.
Problems: the motor is quite noisy, there is some vibration felt on the bike, it cuts out every few seconds and once it is running the display switches to showing 'error 03'.
I can see no reason for the motor to be noisy, a quick test indicates all the windings to be intact, from what seems to be the winding configuration I am assuming it is basically a 3 ph motor and the controller is simulating a 3 ph supply so I would be inclined to suspect a problem with the controller output but the controller will not 'fire-up' without the motor connected and I don't want to take the controller apart at this stage to try and check the output.
The owner of the bike says he has been trying to contact the company for a couple of months but never had a reply and I have tried them twice recently but again, no reply.
The support info on the cyclotricity web site is not much use, the link to a page for the 'error 03' code just returns a 404 page and internet searches have not turned up anything of much use so far.
So wondered if anyone might have some idea about fault finding these conversitions or possibly know what the problem might be?

 

[Nealh]

The fault will be a motor hall sensor a faulty phase connection, how many motor hub to controller wires are there ?

 

[Fw190]

Thanks for the quick reply and info, I hadn't spotted the extra connections to the motor, very neatly placed around the outside of the 3 main connections. There are 7 extra but can't say if they are all in use and haven't time to do anything with it tonight.

 

[Nealh]

All are hall sensor wires 6 small wires is normal so if it dies have a seventh then it might be an internal temp sensor or a second speed sensing wire.

You should see 5v between -/+.
Test all the other thin wires with Black probe to Black thin wire and Red probe to the others (not Red), rotating wheel backwards should see voltage switching on and off.
Any not switching is a faulty hall and the 7th wire is a temp sensor not sure if it will tell you anything.

 

[Fw190]

I'm finding it difficult to test these, the connector is quite clever the way all the connections are integrated into one plug/socket but from a testing viewpoint it is terrible. The only way I can see is to get into the controller or open the motor up but I will have to see what the owner thinks about that.

 

[Nealh]

Yes if you have the moulded Julet plugs then you are better to open the controller to work off the pcb, with the battery live just be careful and sure where you probe.
Julet's aren't for messing with as they are factory fitted and not diyable.

If one was repairing for a living or offering a service for testing a Y lead would be made up to go in between with the third connector being an accessible pin type for testing.

 

[Fw190]

I haven't been able to get in touch with the owner yet but had a look in the controller and it does not look like getting to the circuit board tracks is going to be possible without leaving evidence of tampering as there is a lot of adhesive at the cable entry end and the owner still seems to be hoping cyclotricity might step in, if they ever reply, as he says it is not very old and I have been wondering why I was asked to get involved, him and they guy that got me into this better be up for buying a big drink when the pubs open.
It seems the sensors would be quite easy to test from inside the motor using an external supply as long as the pin-outs could be identified.

 

[Fw190]

Spoken to the owner and he wants to have cyclotricity sort it if it means taking things apart, he has now decided that it might be under warranty but he's not sure!
So thanks for all the help everyone but will have to leave it at that for now.

 

[Fw190]

Got the go-ahead to start dismantling things as the owner is not getting any replies from cyclotricity.
I thought it might be easiest to check the hall sensors directly at the motor rather than digging all the sealing bodge out of the controller, the sensors are 41f's and switch on as soon as power is applied and switch off and on when the magnet polarity is reversed and not just when the magnet is removed and a data sheet seems to confirm this action so I am thinking they are OK.
So would be interested in any suggestions about where to look next.

 

[Nealh]

Do they actually switch between 5v & 1v ?

 

[vfr400]

Do they actually switch between 5v & 1v ?

5.0v and 0v! It's late, Neal.

It can also do that when you have a faulty mosfet in the controller, but most likely one of the motor connections or the motor cable damaged.

 

[Fw190]

Possibly some progress.
Checked the 3 phase connections from controller to the motor and all OK but cant get anything on the +, - or the outputs from the sensors between the controller and motor using the supplied cables.
Having trouble finding a reliable way of testing the cables, if I connect the motor directly to the controller I get all connections except one of the sensor outputs so the extension cable looks to be the main problem.
Are there any good connector systems I could use if I cut the cyclotricity ones off? Or it looks like it would be possible to connect them together directly if I could find some suitable cable.
Hall sensors are switching between 5 and 0 volt, if you allow for 0.01 error on meter but will have to get a replacement as I have managed to break a leg off one.
All the sealer bodge just about fell out of the controller when I started on it.
There is a ninth wire comes out of the controller but isn't connected to anything in the motor.

 

[vfr400]

The 9th wire (white) is for a speed sensor. You don't need a speed sensor with a direct drive motor like yours because the controller can use the hall sensor signals to calculate the speed.

You can buy motor cables from Ebay:

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Before spending any money, do the mosfet test that I detailed above.

 

[Fw190]

Afraid I don't see any MOSFET test details anywhere above and it would seem that something needs to be done about the cables regardless of anything else that might be found.
Just had a quick look on ebay and none on the first page appear to have the same connectors as these, but I am not too impressed with the supplied cables unless there is some way of tightening the connections up in the plugs and/or sockets..

 

[vfr400]

Afraid I don't see any MOSFET test details anywhere above and it would seem that something needs to be done about the cables regardless of anything else that might be found.
Just had a quick look on ebay and none on the first page appear to have the same connectors as these, but I am not too impressed with the supplied cables unless there is some way of tightening the connections up in the plugs and/or sockets..

Sorry, two similar threads running at the moment. Post #4:

Resistors on voilamart front wheel hub

Hello all new member . I have a blown resistor in a 26” front wheel voilamart hub . I can’t find what ohms value I need to replace it . It’s got R2 printed on the board beside it . Can anyone help please

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[Fw190]

Thanks, MOSFET's ? Incoming neg to each phase is 3.3K ohm, incoming pos to each phase is 6.9 K ohm.
The owner is not keen on my suggested options for making any sort of alteration to the cables/connectors, I think he is still hoping cyclotricity may come on-board at some point. So I have been messing about with the cables and bought some contact lubricant which seemed to help and I finally got continuity on all connections with everything on the bench, put it all back together and back to square one, error 03 and unpleasant noises from motor and more contact lube did not help.
I am now able to get at the hall sensor cable terminals in the controller but I am only getting 5v at the yellow in the controller but no change when the wheel is turned which seems a bit odd as all sensors tested OK before.
I am putting the 0v on the green and blue sensor terminals in the controller down to the connection problems .

 

[vfr400]

Mosfets are the lowest resistance I've seen, but are probably right. Check that the motor connector is in all the way to the marked line. If it is, a logical explanation would be cable damage.

The solution should be logical if you can open the controller and get at the connections. You only need to look at the hall wires. You should have 5v between red and black and switching 5v on the yellow, green and blue. If those conditions aren't met, you have to find out why. Either the wires are interrupted, a wire is shorting or a hall sensor is blown. With sealed connectors, further investigation is going to be tricky. You'd need spare connectors with flying leads or leads that you can hack open. These together will allow you to check what's working if you cut the cable in half and join the wires to the tester.

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[Fw190]

Had a result! Made a bit of a mess of several sewing needles, which is a pretty serious matter apparently, but managed to prise the side contacts out in the connectors and all sorted.

Tester is interesting but think it would need some adaptors or it's connectors changing. I have an Atlas component analyser but it just says the halls are diode arrays or something.

Many thanks to everyone for all the help.