Data gathered, evaluated and decision made!

Bob_about

Pedelecer
Nov 17, 2009
113
1
Warks/Glos Border
Hi all

I joined this forum with two purposes in mind – first to ask questions and learn from others experience; secondly to share some of my experiences where I feel they may be useful to others.

This post falls into the later category for anyone interested in how one person with quite specific demands has set about making a decision to spend over £2k switching to cycle commuting. Please note that I have tried to be as objective as possible, but ultimately the information I have gathered and way I have written it up represents my personal take on what I have discovered and is open to correction or challenge.

First stage was desk based research. I trawled forum posts, on line reviews, bike specifications, stated performance figures and general internet chatter. Back in December I also started a thread on here asking how people make their e-bike decisions based on data (http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/5185-making-decision-based-data.html) from which I received some valuable advice. All these internet hours were valuable and helped me develop a list of what I wanted from a potential purchase and a shortlist of bikes to look at.

The list of wants and needs

  • 20 mile each way commute 5 days a week on a single charge per day (approx 8,000 miles per year)
  • Commute time of less than 1hour 15 minutes, as close to 1 hour as possible
  • Reliability, strength and durability with confidence in after sales support (good components)
  • Maximum budget of £2k without cyclesheme or up to £2400 if using cyclescheme
  • Acceptable looks, good ride comfort, full mudguards, rack and lights, disc brakes and front suspension. Preference for hub gears if available.

The shortlist to test ride

  • A Panasonic based system – E-motion City 700 delux with cross bar
  • A rear hub direct drive – Wisper 905se City S
  • A front hub direct drive – Ezee Forza or Torq

A universal piece of advice on this Forum is try before you buy, so despite my temptation during the snowy weeks to place an order for a Wisper City S, which looked a likely winner from my desk research, I waited until I could spend some time test riding the various options. The weather improved, I booked a day’s leave and contacted Andrew at OnBike to arrange to visit and spend time trying some bikes out on the local roads and hills.

In order to keep this post to a reasonable length I have written up a more complete review of what I tried, the data I gathered and the observations and conclusions I arrived at in a document you can access HERE
Following the test rides at OnBike, and some longer rides on my commute route, I have now made my decision and selected an Ezee Sprint GTS, parallel wired to take a 14Ah and 10Ah batteries with a dial assist control in place of the throttle. The bike has hub gears with thumb control, front disc, rear roller brake and all the other spec items I wanted – its a very neat set up and I cannot wait to get started with it.

I must offer my thanks and respect to Andrew at OnBike for his help and patience over the past few weeks as I have sought to make my decision. He has answered my endless questions clearly and without prejudice in favour of one bike over another and has really helped me base my decision on some real data gathered in the field.

I have been impressed how realistic Andrew has been about managing my expectations and the claims made on some websites (and forum posts) about potential range, battery life, costs etc. After talking to Andrew I have made my decision clear in the knowledge that I will be making considerable demands of my equipment and that this will lead to costs along the way, including replacement batteries.

It is also incredible to note that he was prepared to allow me to take two of his bikes away, for several days, to try out on my commute route to gather the all important data and experience, it’s good to develop a trusting relationship with a shop you spend a reasonable chunk of cash with!

My employer has agreed to let me be the guinea pig to test run the cyclesheme salary sacrifice arrangements through our complex payroll section, so as soon as that’s sorted and my voucher arrives I`ll be back to OnBike to collect.

Hope my experiences are of interest and apologies for the length of post and review – I didn’t have time to write a short one!

All the best

Bob_about
 
Last edited:

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
good luck with your new bike!:) that is a fair old commute, but some on here do similar journeys. is it not possible to charge battery at your work place? two battery's is more weight and more hassle IMO. New 16 amp Wisper 905 would do this on one battery I would think....

while looking for a description of a GTS as I had not heard of this model (looks very nice) I came upon this.....

eZee Sprint GTS range problem | V is for Voltage electric vehicle forum

not trying to dampen your enthusiasm at all, as I and others have had problems with our bikes as well. it is the way the dealer responds that is important;)
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
Great write up Bob! Enjoyed reading that...must be the most thorough E-Bike investigation & test prior to purchase ever! I was interested in your remarks about the Panasonic system as it mirrors my feelings about it as well. Tell you what though getting an average of ~18mph on your commute is some going! Enjoy your new bike. :)
 

Bob_about

Pedelecer
Nov 17, 2009
113
1
Warks/Glos Border
New 16 amp Wisper 905 would do this on one battery I would think...
Thanks for the good luck Eddieo - quite excited about getting underway.

Ref 16Ah 36V - that would hold 576 Watt Hours, assuming that on cold days around 80% of that would be available I could expect to have 460.8 to play with if I completely discharge the battery. Based on my tests I`d rather have at least 500 Watt Hours to play with and not deep discharge every day hence the parallel battery ideas, but I do understand the additional weight.

I could charge at work but that would involve some hassle and take the number of charge cycles each year to over 400 - single charge per day keeps me near 200 so would hope to get 2 years use.

. it is the way the dealer responds that is important;)
Agreed - that guy`s dealer was apparently 300 miles away! Fortunately for me I have a short 30 mile drive over to OnBike should I have any problems so I`m sure I could get things readily resolved.

All the best

Bob_about
 

Conal

Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2007
228
2
eZee durability and range

Bob

Thanks for the post, very good description of what we should all have done. I was lucky third time in so much as 50 cycles were sellling the eZee range, the technology had moved on since my Powabyke was made, and I made a lucky choice.

I wanted off road speed with a durable bike; and like you I use two (or three) batteries at the same time to prevent demand peaks and excessive use of one battery, so extending the useful life of all three. I also have the dial which, although I feel is not as efficient as throttle control, prevents a wrist problem developing and, after more than two years use, I would not swap it.

Your point about the battery is well made - I expect to buy a new battery each year and I know that my next (16Ah) battery will cost me over £600 next year. I didn't buy the bike to save money but it has not cost me anything - fuel costs verses battery replacement, and I have enjoyed the assisted cycling and avoiding sitting in traffic queues.

Conal
 

GORDONAL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2009
333
6
sunny Powys(Wales),Spain
Good Review

Congratulations and many thanks for your detailed report -an excellent informative read . I too tried and purchased at On-Bike and agree Andrew is excellent at giving unbiased advice and in general good guys to deal with BTW. I bought a City 700 D/L. now done only 400km. to date but only used for leisure and still delighted with it ,it has been a popular talking/testing point for my fellow campers in Spain Al
 

alex_h

Pedelecer
Dec 28, 2009
197
4
great info

Hi Bob,

thanks for the post, really useful info for me as i look at Ezee bikes very closely as well. I absolutely agree with everything you wrote in the post, makes sense to me,

many thanks
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,766
30,351
Thanks very much for your excellent post Bob, I wholly concur with everything said above about Onbike, clearly the sort of retailer who deserves our support.
.
 

Old Timer

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 5, 2009
1,279
12
Hiya Bob

When we first purchased my wifes bike we also purchased a spare battery to make sure that she had plenty of get her home battery power if she was out on her own. For the first few rides(and after I conditioned her batteries) I carried her spare in my panniers on my 36V bike. In all honesty I didn`t notice 1. the weight in the pannier and 2. the weight in general had no affect that I could feel on my bikes performance.

Goog Luck with your new bike.

Dave
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
Thanks for the good luck Eddieo - quite excited about getting underway.

Ref 16Ah 36V - that would hold 576 Watt Hours, assuming that on cold days around 80% of that would be available I could expect to have 460.8 to play with if I completely discharge the battery. Based on my tests I`d rather have at least 500 Watt Hours to play with and not deep discharge every day hence the parallel battery ideas, but I do understand the additional weight.

I could charge at work but that would involve some hassle and take the number of charge cycles each year to over 400 - single charge per day keeps me near 200 so would hope to get 2 years use.



Agreed - that guy`s dealer was apparently 300 miles away! Fortunately for me I have a short 30 mile drive over to OnBike should I have any problems so I`m sure I could get things readily resolved.

All the best

Bob_about
Just a note about the number of charges a battery can take. It's not a set number and two shallow discharges is probably better for the battery than one full discharge. I can't back this up but it seems to be unanamous between those with greater battery knowledge.
I don't understand the two battery thinking, surely it be cheaper and lighter to carry the charger to work?
 
Last edited:

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,766
30,351
I don't understand the two battery thinking, surely it be cheaper and lighter to carry the charger to work?
Two batteries increasing the capacity substantially increases the perceived motor power under load when the bike has a powerful high current demand motor as the eZee models do.

There's also less life sapping stress on the cells due to current demand, and with the two discharging to lower levels on a given journey, that also increases life due to lower stresses. These latter advantages can be cancelled by the additional costs, but the power gain mentioned first is well worthwhile.
.
 

Conal

Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2007
228
2
two batteries

Following advice from Flecc and others I always charge my batteries at work and at home. I leave one charger at work and carry another with me. If I need to I can charge three partially used batteries at work in eight hours so I have three fully charged batteries to commute home. I then have all night to recharge the batteries at home using one charger.

You could alway buy the 4Ah charger which would half the time needed.
 

Bob_about

Pedelecer
Nov 17, 2009
113
1
Warks/Glos Border
Charging Cycles

My thinking was that I should have enough power in two batteries to travel there and back (40 miles) and have used about 50-60% of the mathematical capacity.

So I guess the question to ponder is whats best for the batteries:
  • 200 charging cycles a year of approx 50%
  • 400 charging cycles a year of 25%

I guess it depends what is considered a deep discharge - I`ve read lots of opinions, but seen very little testing. I`ll have a think, either would be possible for me.

BTW the new Ezee chargers are 4 Ah, so not as long to charge either.

All the best
 

onmebike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2010
499
1
West Essex
I can't see the benefit in wiring two batteries in parallel over simply carrying a second battery?
Wired in parallel both will discharge meaning both must then be charged daily.
Using individually, One will discharge completely and need daily charging, but the other may only discharge partially and need charging every two or three days depending on the journey of course.

Better still, use two 14AH batteries, leaving one at work to charge for the next days return journey and charge the other at home overnight. That way both batteries get equal use/charge and you cut down on weight by 4/5kg. It will mean getting a second charger unless you carry one back and forth.

With a 40mile round trip a day, I'd opt for a 50cc moped. Cheaper to buy, quicker, more comfortable, minimal pollution, less effort, better carrying capacity with large under seat storage, cheap insurance and road tax and low running costs. Drive on a car licence if you have one. I wonder what the daily charging of two e-bike batteries costs together with the possible annual replacement of them? Close to the running cost of a moped I guess.
 
Last edited:

emissions-free

Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2009
176
0
Shanghai
It's generally accepted that discharging to no more than 80% DOD, so 20% remaining and keeping the charge voltage a little lower will greatly extend the lifecycle of Lithium based batteries. I would have said that 500Whrs is enough to do 20miles but it doesn't give you much in reserve for sure if you moving along quite nicely. A 36V 20Ah pack would have probably hit the spot quite nicely though. I reckon about 15whrs/km is a reasonable estimation for a slightly illegal pace with a bit of pedalling here and there.

I think most of these range claims you see are rather optimistic IMO and assume a rather gentle throttle hand and lots of use of the pedals ;)
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
Two batteries increasing the capacity substantially increases the perceived motor power under load when the bike has a powerful high current demand motor as the eZee models do.

There's also less life sapping stress on the cells due to current demand, and with the two discharging to lower levels on a given journey, that also increases life due to lower stresses. These latter advantages can be cancelled by the additional costs, but the power gain mentioned first is well worthwhile.
.
I don't think a 14Ah Ezee battery will be stressed by the current demand of an Ezee motor, it might make a difference though. That aside one 14Ah battery charged at work and home will provide more capacity than 24Ah charged only at home, I don't see the advantage in having the two batteries.
Also assuming the Wisper and Ezee battery and motors are similar then 14Ah is plenty to get 20 miles with minimal if any pedaling, if he is planning to pedal as well then I think he has purchased much more than he needs.
 
Last edited:

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
The benefit as I see it apart from the increased range is that the DOD will be less meaning less recharge cycles and also a stiffer supply IE: less voltage drop meaning a higher average speed over the length of the journey. I think its a good move.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,766
30,351
I don't think a 14Ah Ezee battery will be stressed by the current demand of an Ezee motor, it might make a difference though.
The performance is better with the two batteries. I've used the eZee 14 Ah a little bit, and although much better than the 10 Ah at current delivery, it still falls short of the best that my legal Bafang motor is capable of when a higher current ceiling is available. The sad fact is that few of our e-bikes are really adequately batteried for maximum performance, simply due to the impracticality of the battery weight and size involved.

In practice, the battery current delivery ceiling should ideally be well above the maximum demand of the motor. The reason for that is that current delivery efficiency declines as the current demand rises, so operating in the lower regions of battery capability gives the best performance.
.
 

eTim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 19, 2009
607
2
Andover, Hants.
With a 40mile round trip a day, I'd opt for a 50cc moped. Cheaper to buy, quicker, more comfortable, minimal pollution, less effort, better carrying capacity with large under seat storage, cheap insurance and road tax and low running costs. Drive on a car licence if you have one. I wonder what the daily charging of two e-bike batteries costs together with the possible annual replacement of them? Close to the running cost of a moped I guess.
This strategy wouldn't do much for fitness levels (if that is one of the reasons for going the electric route).
 

brucehawsker

Pedelecer
Dec 17, 2009
119
0
Couple of really helpful interesting comments here for a newbie - '15whrs/km' and high current ceiling. The hub motors are high current dumping addicts. The lab test on our newly imported 37V 16.4Ah beasts show their ability to throw big currents at the motor without heat problems - but we have a relatively massive heat sink in the form of the Al casing.....

If I can steal from Wisper's excellent website:

Wisper 905se Li Po 37V 14A 518Wh 56 miles (90km)
Wisper 705se Li Po 37V 14A 518Wh 56 miles (90km)
Urban mover Li Po 26V 12A 306Wh 28 miles (45km)
Wisper 905eco Li Po 37V 8A 296Wh 29 miles (47km)
PowaCycle Li Ion 26V 10.5A 273Wh 27 miles (43km)

we see a factory minimum figure translating into range of about 6whr/km. I believe 15Wh is very optimisitic for a typical un fit bloke carrying a few extra pounds (ie me!) with stop and starts in traffic and a few steep hills where he does not want to dismount. This ties in with the anecdotal evidence of our clients.

Thus to cover a commute of 40 miles (65km) we would suggest you need at least 450Wh. The big Wispers (at over 540Wh when tested) and our big beast (over 600Wh when tested) would meet that need - but not many others on the market I think?

The short answer is you need more battery stamina than you might think - and in the cold, or after a years use, that Wh will drop by perhaps 25%.....