Discussing the Option and Ideas to safer cycling.

[Dynamic Position]

BBC News - 8 radical solutions to protect cyclists



With all the attention could our politicians be pressuried into making changes?

Would the solution be just to use coloured tar to create routes where cyclists have priority and vehicles are restricted to 10 mph if they need to use route to deliver goods?

 

[trex]

restrict left turning to junctions with traffic lights.

 

[flecc]

restrict left turning to junctions with traffic lights.

Unfortunately that's where a number have been killed, including the woman I watched on a CCTV film riding into her traffic light accident with a readymix cement truck which had been waiting at the red lights. She rode straight past it's left-turn rear flashing indicator just as the lights changed and the truck set off to turn, giving the driver no chance to see her as she sped up alongside.

 

[flecc]

Many of those 8 "solutions" are little short of potty. Trucks are already banned at night in London so that people can sleep, so they cannot be banned during the day, surely a statement of the bleeding obvious. In any case, London's 6000 plus buses are HGVs, often involved in these accidents and equally obviously cannot be banned.

Some of the solutions work in other countries because cyclists proceed at sane speeds and often slowly. Where those solutions work, 15 mph is considered extremely fast and 8 mph is often a common cycling speed. Anyone who thinks UK cyclists will start to ride like that if asked is seriously mistaken, many seem to think every trip is a race.
.

 

[trex]

Unfortunately that's where a number have been killed, including the woman I watched on a CCTV film riding into her traffic light accident with a readymix cement truck which had been waiting at the red lights. She rode straight past it's left-turn rear flashing indicator just as the lights changed and the truck set off to turn, giving the driver no chance to see her as she sped up alongside.

I would have thought that traffic lights encourage drivers to be more careful.
If we have a sign that says 'beware of cyclists' placed somewhere in drivers' line of sight just before the turn, that would get them to look down and check their left wing mirror.
I have not seen the video but I guess if we could go back in time, then the lesson is for riders to make sure that left turning drivers see you.
A continuous quadrant line around the turn may remind drivers to give cyclists some space.

 

[flecc]

But in the example I gave and many others, checking the mirror when about to set off wouldn't help. A cyclist riding into the critical position as the driver starts the turn after setting off won't be seen, because he's having to look into his turn, not looking sideways at 90 degrees and staring at three left hand mirrors. I know from my own trucking experience that some of the things being expected of truck drivers are simply impossible.

 

[CoachMark]

Some of the solutions work in other countries because cyclists proceed at sane speeds and often slowly. Where those solutions work, 15 mph is considered extremely fast and 8 mph is often a common cycling speed. Anyone who thinks UK cyclists will start to ride like that if asked is seriously mistaken, many seem to think every trip is a race.
.

It seems to me that a large number of e-bike users see them as a way of reducing their commute time by going faster than they could under their own power potentially adding to their risk of injury.

 

[Blew it]

The most interesting suggestion for me, was the shared space initiative already in use in Poynton, Cheshire. I remember a similar arrangement was mooted in Swindon some years ago, but they chickened out at the last minute and installed traffic lights. Another redevelopment currently under construction in the Town Center is also proposed to be shared space....time will tell if they proceed with the full implementation of the artists impression.

Watching the video of the redesigned junction in Poynton, it appears to be successful due to the removal of the regimentation imposed by traffic lights. In the absence of any territorial rights-of-way, it seems that drivers, cyclists and pedestrians return to being caring and sharing people demonstrating common courtesies.

It's a long video, so you might prefer to skip through to where the new junction is shown working.

[video=youtube;-vzDDMzq7d0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vzDDMzq7d0[/video]

 

[No1foxy]

How hard is it for the idiots in Westminster, get a bike, go to Holland, open eyes, see don't just look, back on ferry, put what they have learnt into action = safe cycling. Hey that isn't going to happen in reality it would be. Get a bike, go to Holland, enjoy local hospitality, wake up with hangover, back on private jet and talk a load of crap then do nothing.

 

[Clockwise]

Some of the solutions work in other countries because cyclists proceed at sane speeds and often slowly. Where those solutions work, 15 mph is considered extremely fast and 8 mph is often a common cycling speed. Anyone who thinks UK cyclists will start to ride like that if asked is seriously mistaken, many seem to think every trip is a race.

I often hit 30mph and cruise along at 20mph for sections of my commute, I don't think speed is a factor at all when it comes to being in the blind spot of a truck or making an unexpected turn out into traffic or any of the other causes of crashes. My speed could add to injuries but the majority of fatal injuries the speed/weight of other traffic is the fatal aspect and not that of myself as a cyclist.

I can understand that many of those in a hurry will take the fatal gaps by trucks/buses or any number of other bad calls but people in that mindset will make them judgements if they are going 5mph or 30mph and having a poor mindset doesn't instantly make you physically able enough to go that fast.

It's another one of them assumptions of what makes you a bad cyclist that isn't based on facts, similar comments get made about cyclists with/without helmets and with/without hi vis but neither will save a cyclist who puts themself into that gap alongside a truck.

 

[MikeyBikey]

BAN Rush Hour HGV's. Drivers have to prove collisions are NOT their fault with video evidence (that way we don't all to buy & carry cameras, simples, eh?
Make every crossing a Toucan one, so bikes cross WITH pedestrians & won't encounter left turning vehicles.
Also like the 'cyclists allowed to turn LEFT at any red light' one too, with a bike green phase for straight ahead too.
Add Freight to be carried thru city centre via train, mail and steam TUNNELS, according to size. TFL & Royal Mail, etc, are missing out on revenue there. If tunnel not possible then have OVERHEAD electric freight track, paid for & operated by haulage firms, like the tunnels. (Eddie Stobart'd like that :-D)
This would free up more streets for the suggested foot, bike & electric deliveries shared space!
Oh, and HALVE all current speed limits, 30 to 15, 20 to 10, etc, drivers could relax & enjoy the view ;-)

 

[flecc]

I can understand that many of those in a hurry will take the fatal gaps by trucks/buses or any number of other bad calls but people in that mindset will make them judgements if they are going 5mph or 30mph and having a poor mindset doesn't instantly make you physically able enough to go that fast.

As someone regarded as a fast driver, I fully agree that speed alone is no indicator of safety. The point I'm making is the one highlighted in your quote above, that for some speed is an indicator. Therefore in an environment where cycling speeds are all low by custom, the unsafe are made safer.

One difference that high speed makes is that those diving into unsafe gaps at high speed minimise the time window a driver has for spotting them, since they can't be staring at the side mirrors all the time.

 

[John F]

It seems to me that a large number of e-bike users see them as a way of reducing their commute time by going faster than they could under their own power potentially adding to their risk of injury.

I agree. You only have to read all the posters on this forum to realise that getting technical solutions to a higher speed is the goal for many.

 

[RobF]

I agree. You only have to read all the posters on this forum to realise that getting technical solutions to a higher speed is the goal for many.

That is true, but for most us it is only a matter of going from very slow to not quite so slow.

 

[flecc]

That is true, but for most us it is only a matter of going from very slow to not quite so slow.

It's all relative of course. In heavy traffic conditions there are two dangerous speeds for cyclists, slower than the other traffic or faster than the other traffic.

 

[mike killay]

One of the problems regarding shared space is that unlike Holland, we do not have the priority rule.
I was recently at the uncontrolled crossroads by the Menin Gate and watched how drivers, cyclists and pedestrians all gave way to each other. No jams developed at all, whereas in the UK, we would have needed stop lines and traffic lights.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Funny enough the perception of the Dutch was that it would not work. In fact when shown a video of it working in the UK, they came to the conclusion it was because that was the UK. Vice versa when a video was shown of it working in the Netherlands people from the UK said the same, it works because of where it is. The idea of share space is it affects how all people treat the space. The scheme below is one I have seen introduced fairly recently, although just before it was officially opened.

Felixstowe: New signs set to make shared space safer - News - Ipswich Star

My opinion is it will work in some areas but also it relies on all being considerate and you will always get some users who are not whether they are pedestrians, car/lorry drivers or cyclists.

 

[flecc]

Of course we have had an experimental shared space scheme in Britain and there was a program about it on TV.

It sort of worked after a fashion for motor vehicles, there weren't enough cyclists to know how it affected them, but the effect on pedestrians was very negative, they universally hated it due to the difficulty of crossing the roads. In particular for one blind person and one who was partially disabled and slow, it was nigh on impossible.

For someone like myself who places pedestrians first at all times, that makes it completely unacceptable, they have to have controlled crossings.

 

[Blew it]

Where shared space intitiatives have been introduced they have worked well. Over the years, people have been conditioned into using clearly marked lanes and, expect exclusive use of them. Take away all lane marking, give way and stop lines and then all users realise they have no exclusive territory to which they can lay claim. There is nowhere that any user can claim "my right-of-way" . The overall factor is, nothing is moving faster than a walking speed, but nevertheless the flow through the junction is continous and constant. Unfortunately, the success of these junctions is dependant on the most important element of their design....Space, without which they cannot work.

"If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got."

This one clearly demonstrates the "we're all in this together" mentallity that ensures their safe usage.

[video=youtube;qgYzyGvMqjo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgYzyGvMqjo[/video]

 

[Chris the Sheep]

I think shared space can work where all road users have to negotiate - so in the video above motor vehicles have to negotiate with each other.

The example in Blackpool doesn't work because it's a straight through route and drivers just make their own lanes and follow each other - happily blasting their horn at any pedestrian who dares to try to cross.

Re the trucks; my suggestion would be that trucks are only allowed in specified areas at certain times if they have a trained and licensed lookout in the passenger seat, who has responsibility for checking left-hand blind spots. In a place like London that lookout could be picked up at a designated point, a bit like the way a ship's captain has to pick up a pilot before he/she can enter port.