Dual Power E-Bike Hi I am a New Member looking to by a legal e-bike

Paul Hanson

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 11, 2017
14
7
66
Surrey
Hi I am a New Member looking to by a legal Dual Power E-Bike.

My name is Paul and I am just coming up to retirement still fit enough to ride a bike.

The thing is I am not sure about the true legality position of the Dual Powered e-Bikes there are two I am interested in one is 500w and the other is a 1000w Motor both are supplied restricted to 250w and cannot do more that 15.5MPH with Pedal Assistance. But the de-restricted can go faster also the 250w would then become 500w or 1000w. I like these bikes but I want to keep within the law. So now I don't know what to get.

Nice to virtually meet you all :)
 
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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
8,784
3,317
56
West Sx RH
Welcome to the site Paul,
Both are illegal in the eyes of the law despite the advertising blurb. Dual power is not allowed motors must have a rated max power limit of 250w without overheating.
Though plenty ride bikes with higher power or speed derestriction without issues, sensibility is the name of the game.
Sellers can sell any bike they like but the onus is on the buyer to be legal.
 

Fordulike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2010
3,436
1,317
Tyne and Wear
Hi I am a New Member looking to by a legal Dual Power E-Bike.

My name is Paul and I am just coming up to retirement still fit enough to ride a bike.

The thing is I am not sure about the true legality position of the Dual Powered e-Bikes there are two I am interested in one is 500w and the other is a 1000w Motor both are supplied restricted to 250w and cannot do more that 15.5MPH with Pedal Assistance. But the de-restricted can go faster also the 250w would then become 500w or 1000w. I like these bikes but I want to keep within the law. So now I don't know what to get.

Nice to virtually meet you all :)
Firstly, welcome to the site Paul. Secondly, why dual power and not just a high torque, legal, single motor?
 

Paul Hanson

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 11, 2017
14
7
66
Surrey
Well I like the rear hub I dont want a front wheel motor not sure what high torque is to be honest never had an e-bike before so before I buy I want to make sure I am buying the right bike and its legal to ride on the roads. I need the bike to get up the hills without using to much pedal power. I know full speed throttles are are a no no now and can only assist upto 6kph. So many regs to comply with.
 
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Deleted member 4366

Guest
Nevr mind the dual power, the law allows a motor with a maximum continuous rated power of 250w, so a 500w or 1000w motor is excluded regardless of what you do with it.

Having said that, there's lots of manufacturers using illegal motors under that definition. Even the mighty Bosch motor, it seems, is rated at 350w when derestricted in speed pedelecs, so there must be some other interpretation. We therefore have to make a different definition of what's legal, but I'-m not sure what it is.

I would say that as long as your bike is restricted to 25 km/h and you don't have a label or marking on your motor that shows more than 250w, you have little to worry about.
 
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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
8,784
3,317
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West Sx RH
If you want to stay within the law then a 250w labelled high torque motor hub or crank will get you up hills and plonk along at 17mph still legal speed. If you want more speed then any bike will be illegal whether 250w or not.
 
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Paul Hanson

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 11, 2017
14
7
66
Surrey
Welcome to the site Paul,
Both are illegal in the eyes of the law despite the advertising blurb. Dual power is not allowed motors must have a rated max power limit of 250w without overheating.
Though plenty ride bikes with higher power or speed derestriction without issues, sensibility is the name of the game.
Sellers can sell any bike they like but the onus is on the buyer to be legal.
This is what I wanted to know seems the bike shops can advertise these bikes as legal when in fact they are not.
 
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Paul Hanson

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 11, 2017
14
7
66
Surrey
If you want to stay within the law then a 250w labelled high torque motor hub or crank will get you up hills and plonk along at 17mph still legal speed. If you want more speed then any bike will be illegal whether 250w or not.
Thanks for the info :)
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
8,784
3,317
56
West Sx RH
Well I like the rear hub I dont want a front wheel motor not sure what high torque is to be honest never had an e-bike before so before I buy I want to make sure I am buying the right bike and its legal to ride on the roads. I need the bike to get up the hills without using to much pedal power.
In that case buy a peep peep/scooter.

High torque is low wound motor speed (180 - 230rpm) that will get you up hills with light to moderate pedalling with a 18/20amp or so controller and a good battery in this case a bpm or cst hub motor with PAS ( Pedal assist).
Those dual speed bikes usually have motor speeds of 290rpm to 400 rpm+ and are for fast riding on flatish terrain..
In your case forget crank and Torque sensor drive.
 
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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
8,784
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West Sx RH
For good value bikes have a look at Kudos, Woosh both have some good strong hubs for hill climbing.
Oxygen bikes are also very capable for a bit ore money.
 
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Paul Hanson

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 11, 2017
14
7
66
Surrey
In that case buy a peep peep/scooter.

High torque is low wound motor speed (180 - 230rpm) that will get you up hills with light to moderate pedalling with a 18/20amp or so controller and a good battery in this case a bpm or cst hub motor with PAS ( Pedal assist).
Those dual speed bikes usually have motor speeds of 290rpm to 400 rpm+ and are for fast riding on flatish terrain..
In your case forget crank and Torque sensor drive.
Really hard to keep legal isnt it thanks for the info Nealh what sort of bike wood you recommend now you know I want it to be absolutly legal and get up the hills quickly :)
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
This is what I wanted to know seems the bike shops can advertise these bikes as legal when in fact they are not.
That might not be true. It's never been tested and, as I said, any argument about their illegality can equally be applied to most of the other "legal" bikes.

The sooner they get rid of the very nebulous power limit, which can never be measured in practice, the better. All we need is a speed limit, which would be dead easy to check.
 
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Paul Hanson

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 11, 2017
14
7
66
Surrey
That might not be true. It's never been tested and, as I said, any argument about their illegality can equally be applied to most of the other "legal" bikes.

The sooner they get rid of the very nebulous power limit, which can never be measured in practice, the better. All we need is a speed limit, which would be dead easy to check.
I agree with what you say it would make life a lot easier when choosing an E-bike until these laws are a bit clearer I think I should wait as the https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules - state that the motor maximum should be no more than 250w its a crying shame.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
44,137
20,255
I agree with what you say it would make life a lot easier when choosing an E-bike until these laws are a bit clearer I think I should wait as the https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules - state that the motor maximum should be no more than 250w its a crying shame.
I've always taken a similar line to d8veh on this issue, taking the view that only an assist speed limit is necessary and that the required power is a matter for designers, not legislators.

The sad thing is that we have no political opposition to this, indeed some while ago the European Parliament put forward a proposal to the European Commission that the power limit be abolished

But that was unsuccessful for the usual reason, the opposition from motor cycle interests. In a world which has seen a long term decline in motorcycling for social and safety reasons, the motorcycle trade and industry is anxious to protect it's valuable Scooter/Moped market. Being an interested party they take part in all legislative planning meetings on the subject.

They see any easement of pedelec regulations as possibly making inroads on Moped sales, so have rigidly opposed any increase in power or assist speed and have always insisted on a throttle ban. These they claim are on safety grounds, so in our modern age where road safety is one of legislators highest priorities, they win hands down every time.

What we need is many more producers making motorcycles, scooters and pedelecs and therefore able to take a more sensible balanced view. Yamaha still do, though their complete pedelecs aren't sold here, Honda and KTM have made all three in the past.
.
 

Paul Hanson

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 11, 2017
14
7
66
Surrey
Thank you for all your valuable information you have provided a clear and concise set of rules that I should follow until these rules get changed again by the dft.
For someone like myself it is very easy to blunder into getting a bike that I could not legally use on the road. I really do appreciate all your input and helping me decide what o do.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
12,687
9,792
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Hello Paul,

Please post your weight, height and how steep are your hills.
We would then able to suggest some models that would suit your requirements.
 
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Deleted member 4366

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I bet if you put any bike to the test, you could argue that it's not legal.

The power isn't anything to get worked up about. Like I said, as long as the motor isn't marked more than 250w, it's virtually impossible to prove that it's not a 250w one because there's no suitable test. Whatever test you designed, just about every motor would fail it. The reason that you can't measure the power is because it's different at every speed, and the law states "continuous power", which means peak power can be whatever you want. A typical 1000w motor doesn't make much torque, so if it's restricted to 25 km/h, it doesn't make any more output power than your average Bosch motor. The whole business of e-bike motor power is extremely complicated and almost impossible to tie down. They should have specified the maximum output power, like in USA. That's much easier to measure and get a definitive result. It would need to be about 650 watts to allow all the common bikes that we would normally call "legal".

The ISO continuous power test doesn't test the maximum continuous power. It's only a pass/fail against whatever is on the label/specification. A higher power motor will always pass the 250w rating.

So, in summary, the only thing that counts is the label or marking. If your motor doesn't have any, you can make your own. Technically, your bike or motor needs to be marked with its power rating, maximum speed , manufacturer and that it complies with the EPAC (EAPC) standard, but nobody bothers.

Until now, even with thousands of illegal bikes on the road and many newspaper and magazine articles about them, we can't find any evidence of anybody that has been prosecuted for using one with pedals that worked. One guy was prosecuted for being repeatedly drunk on his electric bike without pedals and a woman was convicted on a stand-on scooter because she was first warned not to use it , so she had two 2-inch bolts welded to the tiny front wheel, called them pedals and used it again. The court decided that they didn't count as pedals.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
12,687
9,792
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
most bikes will do ok for your weight and height. If hill climbing is very important, then you can rule out all the 1000W direct drive bikes because they are not good at hill climbing. You are better off with a Bosch CX bike or a strong geared hub motor.
Let's concentrate on your 1 in 5 gradient.
Hub motors are roughly grouped into 'normal' and 'strong'. The normal geared hubs have a torque rating in the 30s NM and are OK up to about 12% gradient (1 in 8, 1 in 9). Strong geared hubs have a torque ratings in the 40s NM and are OK up to 15% gradient. Above that, you would climb better with a strong crank drive motor like a Bosch CX or a Yamaha CD.
We can help you to eliminate unsuitable bikes but there is no better way of knowing which motor and style suits you best other than popping into a bike shop trying out a few e-bikes yourself.
From my own range of bikes, I would suggest the Woosh Rio MTB if you like the MTB style, the Zephyr 2017 if you need it folding, or the Rio FB if you like fat bikes, or the Big Bear LS if you like step through.
All four can cope with 1 in 5 steep hills with pedaling, especially the Big Bear and Big Bear LS.

Woosh Big Bear: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?bigbear

Woosh Big Bear LS: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?bigbear-ls

Woosh Rio MTB : http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?rio-mtb

Woosh folding Zephyr: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?zephyr-2017

Woosh fat bike: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?rio-fb
 
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