First Impressions: Wisper Eco, City, Alpino, A2B etc

[Donnied]

Hi All,

Having always enjoyed cycling, I felt frustrated when i moved to the other side of a steep 1:14 hill in my town, and cycling regularly over it was off putting.

With the newer bikes utilising better technology, the idea of electric assisted bikes appealed to me on many levels, especially regarding encouraging healthy living, cost effectiveness and use of innovative technologies.

So I recently researched and tested out some of the Electric bikes and decided to purchase one. I tried out:

A Sparta (ion I believe)
Wisper 905 city se
Wisper 906 Alpino
Wisper Eco
A2B Metro
A2B Hybrid

Initially I was considering either a Wisper City bike or Kalkhoff Agattu for reliability and performance, but I was put off from Kalkhoffs after hearing about their panasonic system and the difficulty that retailers have of sorting out problems with it.

Here I want to share my first impressions experience:

The Sparta:

Lower price but still getting extra features e.g. front suspension, pannier rack, full mud guards etc. However I found riding it did not suit me, probably due to being used to riding full sized mountain/racer/hybrid bikes. Looks did not appeal to me either and finally I wanted greater range and power.

The Wisper 905 se City 2009:

Was an overall better suiting ride, but still felt that the distance between the handle bars and seat was a little short. (I am an average 5'10'', 75kg slimmish bloke).
I did especially like the independent throttle, and the choice of combining pedal assist with throttle and the ability to easily switch off and ride the bike with out any assistance.
The low level assist seemed a bit useless, but I think that has changed in the 2010 model city s, with 3 levels of assistance.
The thought of riding the this bike with assistance in my locality put that oft talked smile on my face as I rode it with ease up an inclined road.

The Wisper Alpino 906:

Similar to the 905 City, but hub gears, larger frame/wheels. 5 assist levels, throttle on the left though.

will continue soon ...

 

[garrence]

Having always enjoyed cycling, I felt frustrated when i moved to the other side of a steep 1:14 hill in my town

1:14 steep?! Where are you - Norfolk?! We got some 1:4 on my hill in Sheffield

The Wisper 905 se City 2009:

Was an overall better suiting ride, but still felt that the distance between the handle bars and seat was a little short. (I am an average 5'10'', 75kg slimmish bloke).

At the risk of asking a daft question... have you tried moving the saddle back on its rails?

I'm 6'1 with an Oxygen E-mate (like the 905 but better specified IMHO) and I've put my saddle right back. But now I think I'm sitting too far forward on it.... so I'm all confused about how far the distance is meant to be?

 

[simonbarnett]

[Initially I was considering either a Wisper City bike or Kalkhoff Agattu for reliability and performance, but I was put off from Kalkhoffs after hearing about their panasonic system and the difficulty that retailers have of sorting out problems with it.

It's tricky, but the first stop is whether you want a crank or hub bike. I've never heard of panasonic bikes having mechanical problems and they are the best hill climbers, whatever others think about a 1:14 . The downside is you must pedal, but the more you pay the higher the assist ratio. My PCS was just like a quick pushbike in reality and there are dozens of happy Kalkhoff/ Emotion owners here.

A hub-bike is a different proposition and I'm new to this. Off the shelf and legal you get a 250w motor on the front or back wheel. Most can be used throttle only (for now) or pedal assist. The Wisper 905 has its devotees here but there are others, eg Ezee or Wisper's new 906.

I've just got a 906 as having to pedal full-time is a problem so I am seling my Kalkhoff. Initial view is both are great but of differing appeal, but I'd forget any reservation about Panasonic reliability.

 

[Tim]

Initially I was considering either a Wisper City bike or Kalkhoff Agattu for reliability and performance, but I was put off from Kalkhoffs after hearing about their panasonic system and the difficulty that retailers have of sorting out problems with it.

This sounds very much like misinformation/sour grapes from a retailer that doesn't have a Panasonic powered bike in their range. I can think of a certain retailer who's made those claims before...

Electric bike reliability issues often stem from systems where the drive train is strung out along the bike, not from systems where everything is integrated and sealed in one unit.

So, I'd recommend you try a Kalkhoff before settling on a hub powered model. Or if it's a hub powered bike you would prefer, the Oxygen is definitely worth a test ride, they're really rather good.

 

[overlander]

I doubt it but he could be referring to the recent post on clunking from the panasonic motor(pro connect) when you pedal. The most recent update we have is all the new panasonic motors have play in the crank mechanism of about 2mm which causes the clunking noise. I for one have put off buying one right now until this is addressed as clunking noise's are my pet hate.

 

[Tim]

I doubt it but he could be referring to the recent post on clunking from the panasonic motor(pro connect) when you pedal. The most recent update we have is all the new panasonic motors have play in the crank mechanism of about 2mm which causes the clunking noise. I for one have put buying one off right now until this is addressed as clunking noise's are my pet hate.

Hmm, there's no play whatsoever in any of the Kalkhoff's sitting here in the shop with me, even the 3-year-old Pro Connect that completes a punishing inner-city commute every day.

 

[overlander]

Hi Tim, have a look at this post.
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/6379-panasonic-kalkhoff-crank-play.html

 

[Tim]

Hi Tim, have a look at this post.
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/6379-panasonic-kalkhoff-crank-play.html

Yes, I read that and I've been scratching my head ever since. I think there was an error in communication somewhere along the line and Scott and I are investigating.

 

[simonbarnett]

I doubt it but he could be referring to the recent post on clunking from the panasonic motor(pro connect) when you pedal. The most recent update we have is all the new panasonic motors have play in the crank mechanism of about 2mm which causes the clunking noise. I for one have put off buying one right now until this is addressed as clunking noise's are my pet hate.

My ProConnect S doesn't clunk and you can buy it in the classifieds .

 

[Donnied]

Hi again,

RE: Kalkhoffs, initially I was looking into them and strongly considering the Agattu, and wasn't aware of the Oxygen emate City, until now that it has been brought to my attention - I will pursue getting a test ride on them before my final decision to choose the bike I want.

To finish on my first experiences on the mentioned bikes, before my memory of details fades :

The Alpino 906:

continued...

The little controller pad on the left, reminded me of a calculator or a cheap remote control, mainly because of the grey squidgy buttons and 5 levels of assistance. I prefer a more sturdy and simpler mechanism, with out having to get a closer look at the reading to know what level of assistance setting you're on while riding. This is a minor observation as you most probably will get used to it.

I am right handed and didn't like the throttle being on the left, another minor I guess.

The bigger frame, wheels and comfier seat was noticeable straight away, and I liked the ease of adjusting the handle bars and seat to suit your comfort.

All along while testing it I was wondering whether the extra cost of the bike compared to the 905 city was worth it. The hub gears, that seemed to be the most obvious difference I thought were impressive but something about good derailleur gears I felt I didn't want to let go of.

Finally I wanted a bike that still looked like a typical bike and with the exception of the whopping battery in the middle, the wisper bikes looked good.

Wisper 905 eco

This is the stripped down version - had the similar assistance modes as the 905 city but the absence of any type of shock absorbers (suspension) on the front made it lack comfort - quickly gave me sore palms even on a fairly even road. If you are used to riding bikes like this then this may not be an issue - but going down in comfort is that much harder, even if the price is tempting.

I found the setting on it such that the throttle gave, unexpectedly, very little power on it's own which was different to the 905 city and 906 alpino that I had tried - I have no idea why and neither did the retailer.

A2B Metro

3 points: -

powerful (includes a boost button), so really goes. Almost didn't see the need to pedal.

doesn't resemble a push bike more like a scooter, with a chunky metal block sticking out of it back.

Heavy thing it is, that can't easily be ridden on it's own, with out power assistance.

A2B Hybrid

Much lighter than the Metro, more of a bike looking model, still powerful, looked like it was quality made, but the assistance seemed to be 'always on' instead of having throttle control like the Metro. Almost had to say "wo- horsey!" and keep my hand ever-ready on the breaks.

Now if I get to test the oxygen emate or kalkhoffs I will certainly report it, but for now ... laters.

Donnied

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

test ride

Hi Donnied,

I don't know where do you live but certainly you could try both Oxygen Emate and Kalkhoffs under one roof with 50 Cycles shop in Richmond (London). They have many different Kalkhoff models and the our Emate and what's best there are really sharp hills around for test ride.

Best regards

Andrew
Oxygen Bicycles

 

[Donnied]

Hi All,

Update:

I recently got to try out the oxygen emate city and a few kalkhoff's - Agattu, pro connect, and pro connect s (dual drive).

I will post my experience and opinions of what I found shortly ...

donnied

 

[Old Timer]

1:14 steep?! Where are you - Norfolk?! We got some 1:4 on my hill in Sheffield



At the risk of asking a daft question... have you tried moving the saddle back on its rails?

I'm 6'1 with an Oxygen E-mate (like the 905 but better specified IMHO) and I've put my saddle right back. But now I think I'm sitting too far forward on it.... so I'm all confused about how far the distance is meant to be?

There are some steep hills in North Norfolk if you know where to look(or not to look if you don`t ride an E bike

How you liking that E mate? that battery really lasts and lasts.

 

[garrence]

How you liking that E mate? that battery really lasts and lasts.

Very much! I've barely been off it since buying it a month ago. The car is feeling unloved and walking to places feels weird!

I like the nice simple right-handed throttle and absence of the funny little control pad that the Wispers have. I did think that I'd only use throttle, but the pedelec is handy for long uphill stretches. It does take about 4 pedal revolutions for the pedelec to kick in, causing a funny delay when coming off throttle to pedelec, though I suspect that's normal?

It gets a lot of interest. I left it outside a pub on saturday afternoon and noticed a chap in his thirties studying it. When I left, he came up and said it's the first electric bike he'd seen with a mountain bike frame - which is the exact reason I chose this one.

Now planning a 130 mile trip to visit my family, with a night stop over at 76 miles. How I'm getting back is yet to be determined.

 

[Mussels]

Very much! I've barely been off it since buying it a month ago. The car is feeling unloved and walking to places feels weird!

I like the nice simple right-handed throttle and absence of the funny little control pad that the Wispers have. I did think that I'd only use throttle, but the pedelec is handy for long uphill stretches. It does take about 4 pedal revolutions for the pedelec to kick in, causing a funny delay when coming off throttle to pedelec, though I suspect that's normal?

It gets a lot of interest. I left it outside a pub on saturday afternoon and noticed a chap in his thirties studying it. When I left, he came up and said it's the first electric bike he'd seen with a mountain bike frame - which is the exact reason I chose this one.

Now planning a 130 mile trip to visit my family, with a night stop over at 76 miles. How I'm getting back is yet to be determined.

Not on a Wisper with a funny control pad, it takes just a few degrees of movement.

 

[garrence]

Not on a Wisper with a funny control pad, it takes just a few degrees of movement.

I wonder if that's because on a Wisper you set the power of the pedelec, whereas on the Oxygen it sets the power itself? Perhaps it has to sample the toque for a few revolutions to decide how much power to supply.

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

pedelec

The pedelec mode normally kicks in with a very short delay and that is normal on all the Emate bikes. The controller has been programmed this way on purpose. The logic behind it is to maximise the range in the pedelec mode. The biggest energy waste is actually right there at the start when the motor has very low efficiency and the torques are very low too what is quite normal for any hub motors. The truth is that hub motors have the greatest efficiency at the speeds of 12-15mph.

Coming back to the topic if the pedelec kicks in when you are already on the move than you save the energy because the battery does not have to supply such a great current to compensate the low torques from the motor. If the rider doesn't like to wait two seconds for pedelecs to kick in then there is always an option to override it with throttle which can start the bike from zero.

Best regards

Andrew
Oxygen Bicycles

 

[garrence]

If the rider doesn't like to wait two seconds for pedelecs to kick in then there is always an option to override it with throttle which can start the bike from zero.

On mine, in Pedelec mode the throttle does nothing. Switch from throttle to pedelec and there's 2 sec of no power before pedelec starts.

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

On mine, in Pedelec mode the throttle does nothing. Switch from throttle to pedelec and there's 2 sec of no power before pedelec starts.

and that is exactly how it should be. I actually meant that you can go with throttle if you don't want to wait for 2 secs but you have to switch the button first which is only 0.000001 sec

 

[Donnied]

My experience first of the kalkhoff bikes:

These bikes are well built, and do not look chunky. They are built for comfort in mind, so you sit back a bit with the handle bars bent so your hands hold the bars in a more natural position.

They work on a computerised pedelec system which assists you after judging the pressure applied when you pedal. You do notice the slight delay in this process, especially when you are going up a steeper hill and really need that assistance, and of course no pressure no assistance i.e. the moment when your one leg is at the straightest and the other about come down, there is a cut off or reduction in assistance and this is felt on inclines, making the ride not quite as smooth. I found this a thing that you would need to get used to or ignore if you decided on a kalkhoff.

The connect s models have a small lever that is a throttle designed to provide some assistance when you may face a scenario where you can not pedal for a moment (?) - but it's not really there to be used as the main assistance mechanism as it only provides a small amount of power and you can't keep it comfortably held. Personally couldn't see the need for this, but I was hoping it would have been an alternative method of assistance when I read about the connect s models. 27 gears excellent range.

The bikes with the hub gears, I found you have to ease of the pedalling for it to get in the changed gear.

The braking on these bikes was excellent, top class.

I then tried the Oxygen Emate City:

Decent power assistance at the twist of the throttle.

Very similar to the Wisper 905 city 2009, including the plasticy handles, more or less rode like it aswell, with the main exceptions of:-

the fixed wide handle bar,

the pedelec only or throttle only options. Although you had to keep the throttle twisted for the pedelec assistance to work when in that mode,

And there are no levels of assistance, just full and none.

It's battery felt very light for it's size.

I found the handle bar width a little uncomfortable, having to reach out further, but may be I noticed this more after having tested the kalkhoffs and their riding position.

Overall it did feel like a well built bike.

Donnied