Gearing on Torqs

[ITSPETEINIT]

It seems that the subject of gearing on Ezee Torqs is in many owners minds. I saw a message on this subject but I cannot now locate it nor the tread it was under.
I have made quite a few mofications to my Torq - in fact have spent the late summer and autumn on the matter with a few rides in between.
1. The seat pin - what a pain that was. It squirmed about when I applied pressure to the pedals to take off and felt quite unstable over bumpy roads. Perhaps that's what its for but MTB owners are advised to buy Lock Out Suspension Forks because the movement saps the riders strength on bumpy roads. Now with a conventional alloy micro-adjust seat post I can get the saddle back further (another 2 inches) to suit my lanky frame (6ft3ins) and to take out the battery now that the Heath Robinson tilt mech has gone is achieved by simply removing the seat post from its quick release band. By the way, 26.4 mm is a rotten fit in either the alloy one or the chrome steel one - or is it the indestructibility of the seat tube which resists crushing to the seat pillar size? itspeteinit

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Moddifying the gears on a Torq

I am hoping I get some space here - I ran out before I got onto the main subject (or thought I had):
2. I have modifed the gearing on my Torq. A 60 inch bottom gear is hardly adequate for septuagenarians. I thought long and hard about what gears I wanted/needed. Hill Climbing/Crusing with a tail wind/riding home after the battery had failed or otherwise discharged itself.
I came to the conclusion that the lowest practical range was 39 inch low and a 100 inch top. If top is too low to pedal at the achieved speed then I am happy to freewheel.
So: I replaced the 52 chain wheel with a 44 tooth Sugino (cheap on Ebay). I would have chosen a 42 but the roller brake pivot on the chainstay (not required) I thought could not be removed - it simply unscrews and the threaded hole can be blanked with a rubber plug or suitable threaded bolt (except it seems to be a strange thread or a B fit).
The 25-12 cassette was replaced with a Shimano HG30 cassette 32-12.
The Sora gear mech is no longer viable - that was replaced with a Shimano Alivio which will accomodate a 34 tooth rear sprocket. There are two versions one is more suitable for a triple chainwheel with a tooth difference of about 20 large to granny. I had a notion to have a double chainring (52/44 to keep my options open) and use the tried and tested 1900 Tour de France method of changing by hooking it off one and on to the other in certain terrain with the hands.
It all works fine - with a single chain wheel I can keep the inner chainguard on - this might be a necessary device since the chain line on the Torq is appalling. The chain wheel fixed to the inside of the crank set lines up with the space between the two smallest sprockets: perhaps the designers took the view that because it was an electric bike the rider would be in the smallest sprockets most of the time. Not this old fogie! The chain undergoes considerable mechanical torture on grinding climbs.
I know from touring conventional pedal bikes up the Alps (excuse the brag) a low gear of 22 inches would keep the bike going at about 4 or 5 km/hr with all the luggage. Balance is an art and stopping and getting going again a nightmare with toe clips. None of those problems with the Torq. My chief concern now is to match the least viable motor speed with what I can achieve in mph with a sensible cadence. If it is 8 mph then I will have a higher gear on the next procket which is 44 inches and 8 mph can be achieved with a cadence of 60 rpm (or nearly). I might have to spin a little rather than push which is for my weary body preferable (just).
Watch this space.
Itspeteinit

 

[flecc]

Yes, you've tripped over many of the common electric bike compromises. That battery in the way giving the lousy outrigger chain line, the hub motor lowest point of useful output etc. The Torq's standard gearing is theoretically correct of course, since as an electric assist bike, the riders gearing should match the that of the motor. With the motor geared very high for 22 mph and the peak power low point of 12 mph, about 50% higher than most electrics, the riders gears should be correspondingly that high.

That's great in theory of course, but like you say, it's tough for the older riders, the seventies I share with you.

Your choice of the HG30 is a better one than just changing the chainwheel as eZee have suggested, but as you say, the Sora mechanism had to go. I'm managing with the Torq as it is in my hilly area by just avoiding a couple of the more impossible climbs, since I'd reached the conclusion that it can only be improved by spending loads of money. Since there might be a better bike option arriving some time in the not too distant future, I'm keeping the cash in reserve for that possibility.

As I'm much shorter than you I was able to adjust the saddle rearwards enough on it's own rails. That's put the springing out of action, since I'm not directly sitting over the post and I'm light anyway.

Regarding your plans, I don't think the motor has much to give at 8 mph. The power falls off quite rapidly below 12 mph and it's of little use below 10 mph, probably only just about enough to carry the weight of the electric bits up a hill!

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Pedalling assistance for fogies

Thanks for that flecc - just what I needed to hear: "there's not much below 12mph" and "nowt below 10".

I recall the days in 1995 when I had a Korean 2 stroke petrol engine (north or south K. don't ask me) attached to a Marin MTB. It was a heap of junk. I used to practice on the hill leading into Shaftesbury on the A30 coming from the west. To get up that I had to pedal like crazy to get 12 mph because the auto clutch goes in and out at 10 mph - which was like jabbing on the brakes. In the damp the nightmare was worse because the roller driving the rear tyre slipped like mad. I remember I had to lean down and yank up on the front of the motor with the left hand to get greater pressure on the rear wheel keeping going with the throttle in the right hand. It was a circus act!
I had hoped those days were past. I almost got up on the Torq in the 60 inch gear - I fantasised that a lower gear would do the trick. We'll see - except I'm 10 years older.

The standard micro-adjust seat pin is better in two respects: although not stronger it is rust proof, lighter (that doesn't matter much) but it may help to solve the problem of the slightly too short person who feels a little unsafe on the Torq being perched much higher with a toe on the ground at rest - the saddle does down about two inches further. My wife could ride the Torq -
itspeteinit

 

[flecc]

As long as I can keep the Torq "on the boil" at 12 mph it's fine, and on the 12% up to my home I take it at that, often standing on the pedals as it's easier that way. Now I've re-celled the Lafree Twist battery I belted up there seated with much less effort at 9 mph today in it's middle gear on the SRAM P5 which is identical to the Torq's low. The advantage of the motor driving through the hub gears!

With the same effort on the Quando with it's single 70" gear, it's 7 mph, again a lower geared motor.

You've guessed by now that when I go out riding, first it's "eenee, meenee, minee, mo - - - - - - - - - - - -"

 

[urstuart16v@talktalk.net]

torque gearing

i have been looking for a solution to the gearing on the torq,even if the bike will not go up hills in electric mode. i would like low enough gearing to cycle up the hills myself,what i came up with was a 44tooth triple chainwheel with an extended bottom spindle this would be operated by a front mech made by shimano which there are two models, which are fitted to the bottom bracket.The chainwheel has to be 44 tooth as the front mech is none adjustable, and is made to fit 44 tooth as standard,were you have thrown a spanner in the works is do you think i would get away with the line of the chain run-regards Stu

 

[flecc]

No. the chain line would scupper it Stuart. At the moment it's in line in top gear only and twists more and more as the gears are dropped. Since the battery is already up against the chain, the extra chainwheels would be outboard, so the chain line using those would probably be so bad that it wouldn't be usable.

That's why I mentioned the SRAM P5 hub in itspeteinit's other thread, as it's a fairly sensible solution, overcoming the chainline problem, giving the wide gear range, and getting rid of unnecessary gears. Still wouldn't give really low gears though.

For those, the best solution is the SRAM dual drive, which is an 8 or 9 speed rear derailleur driving their three speed hub. In use, the hub is selected for the sort of country being ridden in, low, medium and high range, then the normal changing is on the derailleur. That gives 24 or 27 gears in all, and I've just worked out that these would be the gear ranges given by a 40 tooth chainwheel with a 12 to 30 tooth cassette:

In the LOW hub gear, 26" to 65"

In the MIDDLE hub gear, 35" to 89"

In the TOP hub gear, 48" to 122"

That last one is the Torq's present top gear, but it's existing bottom gear is actually 58", so that new 26" low gear would make it possible to climb just about anything at speeds down to where balance mattered more. With one chainwheel, the chain line would be no different than at present.

Operating the Dual Drive is by a combined twistgrip and trigger, one for each change type. It's a very popular solution on recumbents where the rider has the chain running between the legs for some way so triple chain wheels could create problems for them, and recumbents need greater gear ranges anyway.

Efficiency isn't a problem since the SRAM 3 speed hub is the most efficient one of those, matching good derailleurs when tested.

The Dual Drive hub is £190 (or £210 with mount for disc brake), so with the cassette etc added, conversion around £250 plus wheel building, say £280.

 

[flecc]

If you went for a 37 tooth chainwheel and the 11 to 34 cassette on that Dual Drive, the overall range would grow to 21" to 123".

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Changer on the Chainwheels

i have been looking for a solution to the gearing on the torq,even if the bike will not go up hills in electric mode. i would like low enough gearing to cycle up the hills myself,what i came up with was a 44tooth triple chainwheel with an extended bottom spindle this would be operated by a front mech made by shimano which there are two models, which are fitted to the bottom bracket.The chainwheel has to be 44 tooth as the front mech is none adjustable, and is made to fit 44 tooth as standard,were you have thrown a spanner in the works is do you think i would get away with the line of the chain run-regards Stu

I changed my 52 chain wheel for a 44 On the Prowheel Chainset supplied with the Torq. I kept both on for a while putting 44 on the inside of the spider (where the old 52 used to sit) and put the 52 on the outside of the spider. Of course I had to take off the outer chainguard.
I found no problems with Chainline although there might be if/when wear set in.

I was interested to see your post (above) regarding the front changer that fitted to the bottom bracket. Do you know what they are called - Shimano make a helofa lot of stuff. Even if one found a band-on front changer that would go around the seat tube (on the Torq) there might be just enough clearance between the battery and the tube for the band to go (with a bit of slimming of the band): but the angle at which the changer inetercepts the chainwheel is all wrong AND the seat tube is forward of the bottom bracket (it does not connect to it as in trad. bikes).
So, if there is one that somehow fits on the the Bottom bracket Shell, that might be a good solution for gearing up/down a Quando.
What do you think?
Peter

 

[flecc]

I don't know about bottom bracket changer attachments, and that could be awkward on the Quando given the pedelec sensor setup there, but the downtube is directly in line with and welded to the bottom bracket tube.

Therefore a conventional front changer might fit, though the top of the battery surround plate (same as on the Torq) might need to be slotted for the mounting clip. Obviously the chainguard would have to go.

It might be necessary to have an offset crank, and rebuild the triple chainwheel set so that the rings sat partly outboard, possibly with spacers. This is because the battery/chain relationship wouldn't permit any inboard hang of the inner chainring.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

urstuart16v@talktalk.net

Quote:
what i came up with was a 44tooth triple chainwheel with an extended bottom spindle this would be operated by a front mech made by shimano which there are two models, which are fitted to the bottom bracket.The chainwheel has to be 44 tooth as the front mech is none adjustable, and is made to fit 44 tooth as standard:

Hi Stu:
Do you recall where you came across this Shimano Front Changer - the model number would be great.
Peter

 

[coops]

I'm considering just changing the rear 12-25 cassette for either a HG30 11-30 or HG40 11-34 (megarange?) : the 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30/34 gives a wide range of gears (309%) & seem appropriately spaced & retain good top gears with 52T front (7th & 8th ~ 112" & 132" !!), aswell as a better lowest gear (48.53" or 42.82" on megarange) for starts & steeper hills.

I think I'd prefer either 32T or 34T low with the 52T front as easier for pedalling from starts, which will need a new mech such as the Alivio, already mentioned.

Question is though, can the 30T be accommodated by the sora rear mech? The spec says 27T max, but if 30 will go it saves changing the mech & is a cheapish "compromise" mod to the gear.

Stuart.

 

[Krow]

Since there might be a better bike option arriving some time in the not too distant future, I'm keeping the cash in reserve for that possibility.

Hang on there, Pardner. What is this "better bike option" you speak of?

keith.

 

[flecc]

Nothing specific at present Keith, none ideal for my specific usage range at present although some show promise. The nearest suiting my usage that's in your country but not here is priced right at the top end at present, and it's not really a Torq though it has similar styling, but bikes sometimes change spec as manufacturers move them to different markets. For example the Sparta Ion is firmly a single gear bike in other markets, but it had a derailleur added for the hilly UK.

I live in hope, since our market here in the UK has been in constant flux for a year now and there's no sign of introductions slowing at present and prices are getting competitive.
.

 

[coops]

I'm considering just changing the rear 12-25 cassette for either a HG30 11-30 or HG40 11-34 (megarange?)... Question is though, can the 30T be accommodated by the sora rear mech? The spec says 27T max, but if 30 will go it saves changing the mech & is a cheapish "compromise" mod to the gear

I should probably ask at my local bike shop, but has anyone tried this or have any clue if it can be done - i.e. putting an 11-30 (or 32/34 largest sprocket) rear cassette on a Torq keeping the 52T front chainwheel & chain?

What's the maximum sized rear sprocket you think could be accommodated without having to change either the chain or 52T front? I don't mind changing the rear mech if 32 or 34 is possible.

I just want to make the cheapest & simplest but reasonably effective gear adjustment to give better pedalling from standing starts while retaining ok gear spacing & overall range from low-high... & it seems to me that rear cassettes & mechs are cheaper than front chainwheels, but I'm wary that by increasing the largest rear sprocket without reducing the front chainwheel size, may mean I have to replace the chain anyway?!

I know Torq re-gearing has been much discussed, but specifics like these have not been mentioned.

So, any ideas or advice?

Thanks

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

I haven't tried it Stuart, but the Sora doesn't look like it will make it.

The Shimano Acera is a good alternative at a reasonable price. It handles Megarange as well, but is quite short profile. In addition, it has much larger than standard idler wheels so is very efficient. £17.99 from Wiggle on this link, just scroll down a bit. Click on it for all the details.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Changing the gearing on Torqs

I should probably ask at my local bike shop, but has anyone tried this or have any clue if it can be done - i.e. putting an 11-30 (or 32/34 largest sprocket) rear cassette on a Torq keeping the 52T front chainwheel & chain?
You could get lucky and find they know the answer. I could not buy a chainwheel at one big bike shop: they told me that chain rings 136 BCD (Bolt circle DIAMETER) did not exist. It was about that give or take 2 mm - memory is not what it was.

What's the maximum sized rear sprocket you think could be accommodated without having to change either the chain or 52T front? I don't mind changing the rear mech if 32 or 34 is possible.

Probably 25 - what's on there at present. Certainly not 30/32/34. You are adding 5 to 9 teeth - that's 5 to 9 links.

I just want to make the cheapest & simplest but reasonably effective gear adjustment to give better pedalling from standing starts while retaining ok gear spacing & overall range from low-high... & it seems to me that rear cassettes & mechs are cheaper than front chainwheels, but I'm wary that by increasing the largest rear sprocket without reducing the front chainwheel size, may mean I have to replace the chain anyway?!

Yes! the chain is not long enough with a 52 chain ring and a 32 rear sprocket. It is just right with 44 x 32. A Sugino chainwheel is.... (see below)
Don't overlook the "Flat Battery Scenario": you'll be smiling with a 39 inch bottom gear (nobody LAUGHS with a flat battery).

I know Torq re-gearing has been much discussed, but specifics like these have not been mentioned.

So, any ideas or advice?

Thanks

Stuart.

I have changed my set-up.
Firstly I tried a 44 chainwheel with the 52 on (a double in fact). The idea being to have a snazzy 1900's T de F set up where one gets off and hooks the chain from one to the other by hand. One can do this before going out or at the bottom of the Hors Category climb.

Then I thought this is a bit silly how fast do I want to go? How steep the hill?

In the T de F the smallest gear they use is 39 inches. If you are not into sprint finishes then 100 is probably high enough. Like I said, if the bike goes faster than what I can handle I am happy to freewheel (and enjoy the view).

So i've got a 44 chainwheel and a 12 - 32 cassette.
You can get permutations of rear/front from Sheldon Browns' web site.
You can get cadence/speed variations too from another site:
http://www.arachnoid.com/bike/bike.cgi
You can design your own cassette at a price premium - have what you like. Take care not to exceed the "Total Wind Up" number of teeth - thats highly unlikely - the Alivio will accommodate up to about 40 teeth difference (take no notice that they say eg. 20 tooth difference on the front and 20 teeth difference on the back or whatever- with one chainwheel its all about chain length to be wound up by the jockey wheel).
The Shimano Web site is a heaven-sent work of reference. Every item they make (perhaps made) is there with exploded view diagrams and technical servicing/setting-up data. Look under Shimano Europe then choose your Group Sora or Alivio (under "Road"). If it's not there try MTB.

With a 44 chainwheel the chain is about the right length (take a link - 8 teeth minus on the front: 7 plus teeth on the back): but you may feel that the rear redundant V brake fitting on the chainstays needs to be removed. They unscrew with difficulty (a B fit thread I think) and the holes can be blanked with a suitable rubber plug.

If you keep the 52 chain ring you will need to extend the length of the chain: the type is on the Bikes spec of 50 cycles site "Torq": whether one can get another of the same is a moot point. It's going to be longer than standard anyway so you'll need two if it's a different make/type of chain.

To be sure the set up worked, I changed the rear mech for an Alivio which can handle up to 34 rear sprocket.
On e-bay Sugino Alloy chain ring £4-99 + post £1-95: an Alivio changer about £15/16 plus postage.
Good luck
Peter

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

I have changed my set-up.
Firstly I tried a 44 chainwheel with the 52 on (a double in fact). The idea being to have a snazzy 1900's T de F set up where one gets off and hooks the chain from one to the other by hand. One can do this before going out or at the bottom of the Hors Category climb.

Then I thought this is a bit silly how fast do I want to go? How steep the hill?
Peter

Hi Coops:
ADDENDUM to my last post on this thread:

The BCD of the Prowheel chariot on my Torq is 130 mm.
Cheers.
Peter

 

[coops]

Thanks for all that information

I feel a bit dense now - I hadn't thought of counting the teeth to see if the chain would fit! Is that a standard procedure?

So, if I've got this right, the necessary changes for me would seem to be...

1) change rear cassette for e.g. 11-30/32/34

2) for rear 30T or more change mech for acera/alivio etc.

3) Either get a new chainwheel such that total teeth ~77 or less & adjust chain accordingly e.g. 46T + 30T = 76T so remove a link, or just keep 52T front & find a long enough new chain of same spec.

It seems chains are not too costly, but to me it looks a fiddly job to replace, maybe requiring expertise &/or special tools?

I suspected the Sora may not make 30T, even though I've heard its possible in some cases, which is a shame because I could accept 52T + 30T as a cheapish upgrade (given the chain can be changed cheaply/easily).

Still, this way I can choose a lower bottom gear i.e. 32/34T rear, though without changing the front 52T as you say Pete, I may need a longer than standard chain.....

Hmmm... I guess its still worth it for ease of pedalling off from a standstill: I did wonder if doing so would save much battery power & extend the range any, or if the Torq's standard gearing was designed for "motor-assisted" starts i.e. pedal + motor for getaway & that the motor & controller were designed to do this with minimal power drain usually associated with using the motor at starts, especially I'd have thought in a high geared motor such as the Torq?

P.S. Those Sugino chainrings are cheap Pete! I must look out for one of those... is 46T a standard size, as that might work well for me?

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Torq upgrade gearing

Thanks for all that information

I feel a bit dense now - I hadn't thought of counting the teeth to see if the chain would fit! Is that a standard procedure?
Don't know about Standard: it just occurred to me.
So, if I've got this right, the necessary changes for me would seem to be...

1) change rear cassette for e.g. 11-30/32/34
Yes.

2) for rear 30T or more change mech for acera/alivio etc.
Yes. I am not confident about using existing Sora rear mech with 30T. The Alivio works like a charm. The purpose of the slant parallelogram changer is to keep the guide pulley close to the sprocket one wishes to engage - not actually mesh with it.

3) Either get a new chainwheel such that total teeth ~77 or less & adjust chain accordingly e.g. 46T + 30T = 76T so remove a link, or just keep 52T front & find a long enough new chain of same spec.
Yes if you don't want to buy a new chain for the extra links you'll need.

It seems chains are not too costly, but to me it looks a fiddly job to replace, maybe requiring expertise &/or special tools?
A little practice on chains might not go amiss considering the excrutiating chain line on the Torq - at its worst in the lowest gear when you are intent on giving the bike some real welly.
I would not say "expertise" just a little know-how. Yes, you will need a Chain Tool. Not dear £ 5 -£7 cheapest "Buy it now" on E Bay.
Its not too fiddly to fit/shorten/lengthen a chain (a bit mucky maybe)
A TIP! Do NOT. whatever you do, push the pin right thru' the link behind. You'll curse the day you sold the Hobby-Horse. Just leave enough (trial and error) of the link proud on the inside to be able to "catch" the hole in the link when you offer the join up again. On the subject of re-joining: turn the chain over so that the pin that is protruding is on the outside facing you: then you won't have to operate the rejoining with the chain tool thru' a mass of machinery.
Oh on the subject of chains: make sure its a 3/32nd and the same for the chain ring - there are some BMX stuffs on the market and they do not carry a SIZE warning - they are 1/8th.
But then you knew all this already.

I suspected the Sora may not make 30T, even though I've heard its possible in some cases, which is a shame because I could accept 52T + 30T as a cheapish upgrade (given the chain can be changed cheaply/easily).
Don't know about the price of chains (or two for that matter). Are you a 'spinner' or a 'pusher'? (If you like fast revs when climbing I would go for the 44/46 - a decent reduction, then go off to Wales for the w/end and convince yourself how astute you are) If the gear seems a bit too low on that grade you've got a higher gear or two. If it's too high you can always walk.

Still, this way I can choose a lower bottom gear i.e. 32/34T rear, though without changing the front 52T as you say Pete, I may need a longer than standard chain.....
Yes the Torq is a long bike and I think a standard chain has fewer links - the Torq needs.....where did I put that note? ....67 links for a 25 x 52 set up and the same for a 32 x 44 set up. I took one link out but put it back because the chain was a bit taught in the lowest gear.

Hmmm... I guess its still worth it for ease of pedalling off from a standstill: I did wonder if doing so would save much battery power & extend the range any, or if the Torq's standard gearing was designed for "motor-assisted" starts i.e. pedal + motor for getaway & that the motor & controller were designed to do this with minimal power drain usually associated with using the motor at starts, especially I'd have thought in a high geared motor such as the Torq?
I am less concerned with losing battery power than leg power. If your anticipation is good you can get bottom gear before coming to rest. A higher gear than the lowest will get you started easily enough - but if you come to a standstill on a hill the lowest gear will be a blessing. There is quite a bit of power in my Torq from standstill, even on a hill, but at what cost in battery power/life I can't guess.

P.S. Those Sugino chainrings are cheap Pete! I must look out for one of those... is 46T a standard size, as that might work well for me?

I could not find one on EBay today. The supplier, if you can find another product they are selling, is lk52bvs you can then send a message asking if they have anymore your size. They had virtually every size from 40T to 52T. I looked at SJS Cycles but they wanted a fortune for the only one with a choice of size - a Thorn Shimano Compatible: I am fairly sure. Asking £19-49; then there's the shipping making the total a king's ransom.
There are other Shimano compatible 130 BCD chain rings (measure yours to make sure - the difficulty is that in the "ring" of holes there are not two dead opposite one another - by the way mine is 5 arm/holes (hope yours is too). Stronglight is a reliable ring - you could look at Settle Cycles web catalogue.
I hope this is helpful and apologies if I have insulted your intelligence.[/COLOR
Peter