Have I ruined my Ezee Quando battery?

Ractoc

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 13, 2009
5
0
Hello

I have an Ezee Quando that I got in July 2007. I rode it every day to work and back (about 6 miles, with a couple of big hills) and it would last 4 days if I really pushed it, so about 24 hilly-ish miles.

I recently had a baby and therefore didn't ride the bike for about 7 months (late pregnancy till went back to work - apparently babies are not suitable for putting in pannier bags till at least 6 months ; - )) Now have started riding it again and the battery is not lasting any time at all. I can make it to work and back once, if lucky (6 miles).

For those familiar with the Ezee bikes, they have green, amber and red lights on the display. It used to be on green for a long time, then would flick to amber (and possibly red) if put under a heavy load, but then back to green. Once battery was getting low, it would be just amber-red, then red only, which meant I had about 1-2 miles left. Now it is just straight from green to amber-red. It doesn't always respond from standstill, and it cuts out briefly going up hills, so I have to stop and let it recover for 30 seconds. Then it goes straight back to green, as if fully charged. After about 6 miles it dies completely (all lights go out) but if I turn it off and on again it sometimes recovers.

I didn't charge it at all for the 7 months I was doing baby stuff. Has this permanently damaged it? Can it be fixed?

Cyclepoint's website says they are £400, which I am loathe to spend if the bike itself is not warrantied etc. 50Cycles no longer sell the Ezee bikes as they say Kalkhoffs are much better. I find that hard to believe as this one used to whip up pretty horrid hills.

So, any advice? Can it be fixed? Should I fork out for a new one or should I upgrade to a Kalkhoff?

Any advice welcome
 

rog_london

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2009
764
2
Harrow, Middlesex
Hello

I have an Ezee Quando that I got in July 2007. I rode it every day to work and back (about 6 miles, with a couple of big hills) and it would last 4 days if I really pushed it, so about 24 hilly-ish miles.

I recently had a baby and therefore didn't ride the bike for about 7 months (late pregnancy till went back to work - apparently babies are not suitable for putting in pannier bags till at least 6 months ; - )) Now have started riding it again and the battery is not lasting any time at all. I can make it to work and back once, if lucky (6 miles).

For those familiar with the Ezee bikes, they have green, amber and red lights on the display. It used to be on green for a long time, then would flick to amber (and possibly red) if put under a heavy load, but then back to green. Once battery was getting low, it would be just amber-red, then red only, which meant I had about 1-2 miles left. Now it is just straight from green to amber-red. It doesn't always respond from standstill, and it cuts out briefly going up hills, so I have to stop and let it recover for 30 seconds. Then it goes straight back to green, as if fully charged. After about 6 miles it dies completely (all lights go out) but if I turn it off and on again it sometimes recovers.

I didn't charge it at all for the 7 months I was doing baby stuff. Has this permanently damaged it? Can it be fixed?

Cyclepoint's website says they are £400, which I am loathe to spend if the bike itself is not warrantied etc. 50Cycles no longer sell the Ezee bikes as they say Kalkhoffs are much better. I find that hard to believe as this one used to whip up pretty horrid hills.

So, any advice? Can it be fixed? Should I fork out for a new one or should I upgrade to a Kalkhoff?

Any advice welcome
I believe it's a lithium battery, and they don't take kindly to not being charged for such a long period. It's likely that it won't recover, I'm afraid.

It's worth persevering with it for a while, to see if exercising it will help. Sometimes a battery which has been left too long will improve if you use it for a while, but the prognosis is not good.

If you like the bike, if I were you I'd go for a new battery if the old one won't recover. There's a huge difference in the £400-ish a new battery will cost you compared to a new Kalkhoff. It's very much a personal decision though.

Apart from that, in the words of the old music hall song, don't have any more, Mrs. Moore! Especially after you've bought a new battery or a new bike.

Rog.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
The problem is the battery, and a new one will sort it out. These lithium batteries should be charged at least once every three months, preferably a little more often. Apart from that, they age whether used or not even if they are regularly charged, and the earlier batteries were not very long lived anyway. The latest ones are much better and a kilo lighter.

If you let me know the full alpha-numeric serial number commencing with a "J" I can let you know the exact age of the battery and whether it would have died shortly anyway.

I'm afraid all the batteries have leapt in price lately due to the current exchange rates, the Kalkhoff one as well jumping by £100 to £395. You're right that the eZee Quando is an excellent climber and if it does the job for you there's no need to change it for another bike at a much higher cost than a new battery would be.

N.B. Post crossed with Rog's post
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Footie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 16, 2007
549
10
Cornwall. PL27
It sounded to me like a dead/dieing battery but I thought I would let those in the "know" say it first.
The web site below has lots of information on batteries. Unfortunately, it won't help you on this occasion but I've found it a very useful reference resource in the past, saves having to keep asking battery questions ;)

Welcome to Battery University
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Ractoc

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 13, 2009
5
0
Serial number - and how long do they last anyway

Hello all - thanks for your posts. I feel like a right eejit for not charging it up but there you go.

The serial number is JGJDJC100020, any feedback on that would be helpful.

I'm intrigued by your comment on whether it would have died soon anyway - at £400 each if they only have a life of two years then this is going to cost me a fair bit. I had expected it to have a much longer life than that, based on what I was told when I bought it.

Cheers
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
Well you can stop blaming yourself, since that battery would be dying about now anyway. It was made on 3rd April 2007 so just coming up to two years which was about all that could be expected from that series.

They've been going through a continuous program of improvements, and those from later in the year were rather better. The latest are the best yet, but that said, they are still only good for a maximum of about 500 full charges.

There is something you can do to maximise the life though, and that's to charge a new one more frequently. Lithium batteries don't like being fully discharged once conditioned, little and often is much better. In your case it would be best to condition a new battery by first fully charging, then using it until virtually empty, your four days being ideal to do that, then repeat the same again so that it has had two full charge/discharge cycles. That ensures the full battery capacity is achieved.

From then on part charge more often, every second day at about 12 miles is much better since that stresses the battery less and gets the best life out of it.
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rog_london

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2009
764
2
Harrow, Middlesex
I was wondering....

Well you can stop blaming yourself, since that battery would be dying about now anyway. It was made on 3rd April 2007 so just coming up to two years which was about all that could be expected from that series.

They've been going through a continuous program of improvements, and those from later in the year were rather better. The latest are the best yet, but that said, they are still only good for a maximum of about 500 full charges.
There is this 'perceived wisdom' about that a lithium battery is only good for two years (ish) no matter how you treat it. However, we don't really know how the latest incarnations will stand up to use, do we? Are the manufacturers actually (still) saying 'two years, and that's your lot'?

I would have expected the technology to have improved in every respect since those early ones.

Rog.
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
I would have expected the technology to have improved in every respect since those early ones.

Rog.
unfortunately for those of us in the West, the market is driven by its largest customer sector; which appears to be in South China and SE Asia.

I think it was your good self who pointed out that Sealed Lead Acid batteries fare even worse in the tropical weather conditions found in this part of the world, maybe only lasting a year.

This is backed up by various claims amongst the Chinese local authorities that dumped lead acid ebike batteries create a considerable environmental blight - to the point where some areas temporarily banned e-bikes! Of course in many areas this ban was widely ignored (it would be like trying to ban chopsticks :D) and quietly rescinded.

So to the Oriental customers, a 2 year service life (albeit at higher price) maybe is an improvement. Bear in mind also that although material prices may have risen they won't be stung as much by the negative effects of currency exchange rates either..

The Ezee Torq price range of bikes appear to be the equivalent of a Lotus or Jaguar if compared to a motor car - clearly a nice set of wheels but expensive to maintain...
 

rog_london

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2009
764
2
Harrow, Middlesex
unfortunately for those of us in the West, the market is driven by its largest customer sector; which appears to be in South China and SE Asia.

I think it was your good self who pointed out that Sealed Lead Acid batteries fare even worse in the tropical weather conditions found in this part of the world, maybe only lasting a year.

This is backed up by various claims amongst the Chinese local authorities that dumped lead acid ebike batteries create a considerable environmental blight - to the point where some areas temporarily banned e-bikes! Of course in many areas this ban was widely ignored (it would be like trying to ban chopsticks :D) and quietly rescinded.

So to the Oriental customers, a 2 year service life (albeit at higher price) maybe is an improvement. Bear in mind also that although material prices may have risen they won't be stung as much by the negative effects of currency exchange rates either..

The Ezee Torq price range of bikes appear to be the equivalent of a Lotus or Jaguar if compared to a motor car - clearly a nice set of wheels but expensive to maintain...
Thanks for that. It seemed that we might be in danger of just accepting that fact without any thought....

I can claim a good deal of expertise on the subject of lead acid batteries in general, but lithium is really outside my area - although most of us have discovered that Li-Ion batteries as used in laptops, PDAs, etc, do often have rather a short life.

I can quote one exception though - I have a Nokia 6210 phone as supplied by my employers. That has a Li-Ion battery, I've had it (in constant use) since 1999, and I have only *just* replaced the battery, which admittedly after all that time was probably down to about 30% capacity. Still, a good eight years.... My pals in Ghana tell me that the 6210 is the best phone Nokia ever produced in terms of longevity, and although they're very basic compared to what's now available, they are prized in that hot climate. I know that's off topic, but it's so hot there that normally they're lucky to get more than a year out of a phone battery either, even if the phone itself doesn't pack up.... So, it can be done.

Also off topic, but might raise a smile - the 6210 has proved to have a useful feature not present among modern phones - if you leave it on the train, it comes back. The company's address and a contact number are on the back, and it's no longer fashionable, and in eight years I've done that three times!

Rog.
 

UrbanPuma

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 11, 2007
634
41
Well you can stop blaming yourself, since that battery would be dying about now anyway. The latest are the best yet, but that said, they are still only good for a maximum of about 500 full charges.
.
My question is, if a battery has a maximum charge of 500 and a user only charges it say 40 times over the course of a couple of years, does this mean they could expect the battery to run for several more years until they reach 500 charge cycles?
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
General answer on the life of the latest compound cathode lithium batteries.

All lithium rechargeable batteries age regardless of whether they are used or not, so capacity is lost over time no matter how little they are used.

As for the life, once the switch to manganese cathodes was made for safety reasons, the life limit was set by when the battery started cutting out under load since this cathode type has difficulty in delivering adequate current at high rates.

The best of the latest ones now use compound cathodes of manganese and cobalt which are better at delivering current, and the construction is now more generally of the superior polymer type. Therefore the life will depend now more on the minimum range required.

For example, if a new battery gives a 25 mile range and someone has a 20 mile journey, the natural loss of capacity will mean they will probably be unable to complete their journey before two years is up, so for them that is possibly end of life unless they use two batteries for the trip.

In Ractoc's case with the Quando, the round trip distance is only 6 miles, so the battery could well be perfectly ok for that trip at three years old and possibly well into four years, since it will take a long time for the battery to decline to only one quarter of it's original capacity.

I've been running the near to latest eZee battery on test for 15 months now and it's lost some of it's capacity of course, but it's still running fine with no loss of power. That battery was cruelly used for the first six months and completed over 3500 miles in some 24 weeks, so for more moderate use it should have a reasonably long life.
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torrent99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 14, 2008
395
36
Highgate, London
For example, if a new battery gives a 25 mile range and someone has a 20 mile journey, the natural loss of capacity will mean they will probably be unable to complete their journey before two years is up, so for them that is possibly end of life unless they use two batteries for the trip.

In Ractoc's case with the Quando, the round trip distance is only 6 miles, so the battery could well be perfectly ok for that trip at three years old and possibly well into four years, since it will take a long time for the battery to decline to only one quarter of it's original capacity.
Indeed, and there's also the depth of discharge effect as well.
I like to compare it to people running marathons (or some other such analogy). If a given runner has a 26 mile range, and you make him run that full 26 miles every week, pretty soon his body is going to be kn*******d!
If you only make him run 6 miles a week, he'll last a lot longer and his body may still be capable of an occasional 20 miles well beyond when the 26 mile runner has retired from running!



I've been running the near to latest eZee battery on test for 15 months now and it's lost some of it's capacity of course, but it's still running fine with no loss of power. That battery was cruelly used for the first six months and completed over 3500 miles in some 24 weeks, so for more moderate use it should have a reasonably long life.
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BTW do you know what cells are being used in this eZee battery?
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
Indeed, and there's also the depth of discharge effect as well.
I like to compare it to people running marathons (or some other such analogy). If a given runner has a 26 mile range, and you make him run that full 26 miles every week, pretty soon his body is going to be kn*******d!
If you only make him run 6 miles a week, he'll last a lot longer and his body may still be capable of an occasional 20 miles well beyond when the 26 mile runner has retired from running!
That's why I earlier recommended Ractoc to charge at half the range distance, instead of as previously, when it was nearly emptied.

BTW do you know what cells are being used in this eZee battery?
The one I've been testing is a Phylion but not polymer construction, basically the latest generation of the earlier series of battery from Phylion, and probably compound cathode. The latest eZee battery uses a compound cathode and polymer construction but it's not made by Phylion. The new maker has never been confirmed, but I suspect it's Advance.
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Ractoc

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 13, 2009
5
0
sooo - should I buy a Kalkhoff then?

Are they batteries on the Kalkhoffs going to last much longer? The chap at 50Cycles told me they were a whole big improvement on the Ezee ones but I don't know if that is in terms of life between charges or overall length of life.

I am also in a bit of a fix with mine because I didn't think about the small wheels when I got it (as was not planning babies at that point) and it seems that this means I can't get a bike seat to go on the back of it. I could get a trailer but would have storage issues with that I think.

But that's a whole 'nother posting.....
 

torrent99

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 14, 2008
395
36
Highgate, London
Are they batteries on the Kalkhoffs going to last much longer? The chap at 50Cycles told me they were a whole big improvement on the Ezee ones but I don't know if that is in terms of life between charges or overall length of life.

I am also in a bit of a fix with mine because I didn't think about the small wheels when I got it (as was not planning babies at that point) and it seems that this means I can't get a bike seat to go on the back of it. I could get a trailer but would have storage issues with that I think.

But that's a whole 'nother posting.....
Have you tried looking at the Co-Pilot range? They attach to a standard rack (supplied with the seat), or would this not fit on your bike? (they start at £80 new, maybe £30-50 on fleabay)

Baby seats are a bit of a problem with many e-bikes. One problem being that many baby seats attach via a bracket that goes on the downtube of the bike. Unfortunately with many e-bikes the downtube can't be used because of the battery.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
Both the Kalkhoff and eZee batteries are of the same type now, and I wouldn't rate one as superior to the other. The one on the Kalhoff has a slightly easier life since the motor system it uses demands that you provide around half the cycling effort all the time, quite unlike the Quando which manages by itself much of the time. In fact I'd advise that you must try one of the Panasonic powered bikes like the Kalkhoff before buying since they are so radically different in the way they work, you might love or hate it. It's a Marmite thing.

If you have the Quando 2 without suspension there's no reason not to fit a child seat, but if yours is the Quando 1 with rear suspension, that and the short 10 kilo carrier rules that option out.

The Quando is a good towing bike however, so if you find room for a trailer it's a good solution, particularly since the child has better view forward over a 20" wheel than on a large wheel bike.
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Bandit

Pedelecer
Mar 13, 2009
44
0
The latest eZee battery uses a compound cathode and polymer construction but it's not made by Phylion. The new maker has never been confirmed, but I suspect it's Advance.
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The Lithium Polymer battery that came with our recently acquired eZee Sprint is indeed made by Advanced. We're having trouble "conditioning" it - it only charges for a couple of hours before claiming to be "full" according to the instruction manual. And although we're currently testing the bike in fairly hilly country, the battery seems to drain much faster than the one on an accompanying Panasonic powered bike if the bike monitor is to be believed.

Perhaps we're too nervous about the red light and we're not actually managing to drain it completely - we don't have a voltmeter. The only thing we do have is a mains current/volt/watt meter, and it's fascinating to see how many watts the charger uses while replenishing the battery. It starts at 100 goes quickly up to 110 watts, then after a couple of hours starts to drop gently over the next hour to about 18 watts, before finally bottoming out at 7W, which I take to be its "rest" state. On the two charges we've done so far, the charger has used 220 and 290 watt hours of mains electricity, and I'm guessing there'll be rather less than that being stored in the battery! Does that count as the "deep discharge" that Lithium batteries like when they're first charged? Knowing nothing about batteries, I was hoping that the charger's power requirement might give me some clue about the state of the battery.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
And although we're currently testing the bike in fairly hilly country, the battery seems to drain much faster than the one on an accompanying Panasonic powered bike if the bike monitor is to be believed.

Perhaps we're too nervous about the red light and we're not actually managing to drain it completely - we don't have a voltmeter.
Yes, you are being too nervous about the red light. The reason you see it more often is the much higher power of the motor in the eZee bike and the position of the meter in the circuit. When you open the throttle the meter immediately reflects the current drain of the motor and can show red, particularly if uphill under load.

By contrast, the Panasonic metering is wired from the motor unit in a well damped system which doesn't reflect what the motor is doing, so there is no comparison possible by reading the respective meters.

The eZee battery state is only shown properly when the throttle is completely closed and you pause pedalling for the reading. Of course the range is likely to be shorter if using the higher power of the eZee bike to the full, both batteries being the same capacity.

I think you should try to run the battery out a bit more while staying close to home of course to see how much you are able to empty it for conditioning, but that's not likely to be critical.
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Bandit

Pedelecer
Mar 13, 2009
44
0
I think you should try to run the battery out a bit more while staying close to home of course to see how much you are able to empty it for conditioning, but that's not likely to be critical.
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Thanks, Flecc. The manual mutters dire warnings about damage to the battery that may result from using it after the red indicator has lit - even if it subsequently recovers after "rest". I take it what they mean is that if the indicator is red while at rest, the battery might subsequently show signs of recovery if not used, but that you could then potentially damage it if you use it without an intervening recharge.

Running down the Panasonic in a similar way is proving quite challenging. From its first indication of low voltage to final demise is a pretty lengthy margin. But we're warming to its different, if a little more austere, "user model" - it will go up pretty well anything if you are prepared to take it at a speed you can manage between you. The eZee goes up the hills it will go up rather more quickly, but so far we're finding it harder to work cooperatively with the motor - I expect it's a knack!
 

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