Hello everyone. New subscriber to the forum. I have an issue that I would like some input on.

RayPooley

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jan 8, 2019
8
1
#1
Hello everyone. New subscriber to the forum. I have an issue that I would appreciate some input on if at all possible.

Before I get to the issue I think it's important to go into detail about what DOES work as well as what doesn't if you are asking for peoples' input.
You get a fuller picture. So please bear with me.

It's not actually my bike but my neighbour's. He has asked me to take a look at it because he's has doubts about it's performance.

I have given it a very thorough inspection hardware wise and everything is fine. Throttle and brake motor inhibitors work, pedal assist sensor gap correct and magnetic
field strength seems good and motor controller no apparent issues. Wiring is clean and robust. Mapped it all out and everything seems to be connected that needs to be.

As an endurance test I ran it on its stand with full throttle for 8 hours beginning with a fully charged battery pack just over 40 volts.

The bike has a 5 LED display for monitoring the battery charge state.

During the test I recorded both the LED count and the wheel RPM on a half hourly basis.

After 8 hours of run time the display showed 3 LEDs lit and RPMs were 120 (down from a 132 at the start of the test).

In travel terms this would be the equivalent of 75 miles. A virtual 75 mile ride if you will. Unladen, of course, but as far as I'm concerned it shows the battery pack, the charger
and the motor are working fine.

The battery pack showed 33.4 volts after the 8 hour test.

So, I put the battery pack on recharge. It took 3.75 hours for the charger to show a green light. The battery pack showed just over 40 volts when fully charged.

With fully charged battery pack on the bike the owner took it for a road test.

The feedback is that it works fine. It goes great when he uses the pedals (ie: deploying the pedal assist) and not so strong when he just uses the throttle.

But his main issue is that the throttle has no effect when he is pedalling.

Now I have looked on a nunber of websites and according to the information about combination drives there are two types. One type you can use both the throttle
and pedal assist simultaneously (let's call that Type 1), the other you can't ie: pedal assist overrides throttle (let's call that Type 2).

At the moment my neighbours bike appears to be a fully functioning Type 2. In which case there is no problem.

However, he tells me that it USED to allow him to use the throttle and pedal assist simultaneously which would make it a Type 1.

So here, at last, is my question.

If it began life as a Type 1 and turned into a Type 2 what could be the cause of this? Have you ever heard of that happening?

What component(s) might be at fault?

Throttle or pedal assist sensor? Both appear to be workig fine independently.

Motor controller? After all, it's the controller that's responsible for handling input and output.

Has anyone else had this experience?

Would appreciate your input.

Thanks
 

Jonah

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 23, 2010
627
33
EX38
#2
What make and model of bike is it? What levels of PAS assist does it have. It might be that the throttle only makes a difference in lower assist level. Also 40v for a fully charged battery is a bit low. Possibly the battery is not up to providing the max output under load that it might have done in the past.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
6,380
205
55
West Sx RH
#3
Throttle's usually demand max power from the off, not many e-bike ones are fine tuned graduated ones. As Jonah has mentioned 40v or just over is a sign of a battery at end of life or badly out of balance, therefore any throttle input will show up as nil affect or lack lustre due to cell voltage crashing.

How does PAS react to real world ride in max pas assist level ?
If battery is at end of life and cell voltage is crashing. In PAS low assist it may appear o.k but in high max assist, power will cut due to voltage crashing and battery unable to deliver load asked of it.
 

RayPooley

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jan 8, 2019
8
1
#4
What make and model of bike is it? What levels of PAS assist does it have. It might be that the throttle only makes a difference in lower assist level. Also 40v for a fully charged battery is a bit low. Possibly the battery is not up to providing the max output under load that it might have done in the past.
Hello Jonah. Thanks for the response. Its a pretty obscure make from China. I can't find any info on it at all and boy have I looked. Not even the company who made it. It's a Kiongying. No docs either. As for the levels of PA as far as I am aware it is with or without depending on whether he decides to pedal or not. I see no way of choosing a preference on this ebike control wise. There may be some mechanical function that detects pedal pressure and responds accordingly. I don't know. As for the batteries they are 6 x 6 volt in series which is 36 volts so you are not going to get more than 40 volts into them. They are new batteries too. I have seen and tested the new ones and the old ones and they are all fine. There was really no need to replace the originals but the owner did anyway to see if it made a difference. The charger has a nominal 36 volt spec output with a 41.5 volt changing voltage. So that's all there is. I presume the motor is happy with that. I wouldn't want to try pushing a greater voltage through it. I would be concerned about damage the motor or the harness.
 

RayPooley

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jan 8, 2019
8
1
#5
Throttle's usually demand max power from the off, not many e-bike ones are fine tuned graduated ones. As Jonah has mentioned 40v or just over is a sign of a battery at end of life or badly out of balance, therefore any throttle input will show up as nil affect or lack lustre due to cell voltage crashing.

How does PAS react to real world ride in max pas assist level ?
If battery is at end of life and cell voltage is crashing. In PAS low assist it may appear o.k but in high max assist, power will cut due to voltage crashing and battery unable to deliver load asked of it.
Thanks for the reply Nealh. Not actually been on the bike myself and there aren't any hills in my neighbourhood where you could punish it and see how it handles. As for the batteries they are 6 x 6 volt in series which is 36 volts so you are not going to get more than 40 volts into them. They are new batteries too. I have seen and tested the new ones and the old ones and they are all fine. There was really no need to replace the originals but the owner did anyway to see if it made a difference. The charger has a nominal 36 volt spec output with a 41.5 volt changing voltage. So that's all there is. I presume the motor is happy with that. I wouldn't want to try pushing a greater voltage through it. I would be concerned about damage the motor or the harness.
 

wheeliepete

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 28, 2016
854
63
55
Devon/Dorset
#6
OK, sounds like they are SLA batteries. We don't see many still using them these days. It does sound like a very basic bike with 1 PAS level and maybe it's the same power delivery as the throttle, so it's difficult to tell which is working. I can't think of a fault that would cause your problem as they both work.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
6,380
205
55
West Sx RH
#7

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
6,380
205
55
West Sx RH
#8
With my KT controllers via the lcd, I can set throttle to work as stand alone to PAS or can set it to work only after I pedal first.
Is it possible that your neighbour has inadvertently found/adjusted a programming feature without realising it ?
 

RayPooley

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jan 8, 2019
8
1
#9
OK, sounds like they are SLA batteries. We don't see many still using them these days. It does sound like a very basic bike with 1 PAS level and maybe it's the same power delivery as the throttle, so it's difficult to tell which is working. I can't think of a fault that would cause your problem as they both work.
Yes they are. 6 of them in series. I wouldn't argue with you as to the bikes level of sophistication. I can't think of any reason why a Type 1 combo (as I called it) should suddenly become a Type 2. Here's a pic.
 

Attachments

RayPooley

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jan 8, 2019
8
1
#10
With my KT controllers via the lcd, I can set throttle to work as stand alone to PAS or can set it to work only after I pedal first.
Is it possible that your neighbour has inadvertently found/adjusted a programming feature without realising it ?
I doubt that. It's not that sophisticated a set up. I gave the bike a thorough going over and I didn't see any way of selecting preferences of any kind it's basically a stop/go machine. There is no console. The only switch on the bike is an ignition switch.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
6,380
205
55
West Sx RH
#12
Yes they are. 6 of them in series. I wouldn't argue with you as to the bikes level of sophistication. I can't think of any reason why a Type 1 combo (as I called it) should suddenly become a Type 2. Here's a pic.
o_OWow!!! A suitcase for a top box.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
6,380
205
55
West Sx RH
#14
You missed a bargain there Neal:Dfull suss too....sorry, it looks like there is some buttons on the R/H side of the bars, what do they do?
Not my cup of tea.
I'm a Swizzbee fan.
 

RayPooley

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jan 8, 2019
8
1
#15
I guess what I am trying to do here is get some input on the veracity of a Type 1 becoming a Type 2. Is it possibly I ask myself?

I don't actually think so.

You see, here's my rationale.

Type 1: What we are talking about here is a system that monitors input from both throttle and pas simultaneously and either prioritizes whichever input has the greater demand for speed or combines both demands and works out the speed from that. It has to be that way otherwise there would be no point in having the dual input.

Type 2: What we are talking about here is a system that simply ignores the throttle input when there is pas input. Or maybe the other way round.

The only way to manage this is through the motor controller. The program logic. And the logic associated with these two approaches are so wildy different it's hard for me to see how one could suddenly become the other. Not without someone or something altering some kind of configuration and that funtionality is not available on this bike. There is no software interface.

It did occur to me to find a new controller but I have hunted high and low and can't find one like this one. I have looked for wiring diagrams as well that have the same coloued wiring but to no avail. I would literally have to pull the wiring apart to figure out where everything goes.

Bottom line here is that I think this is the type of bike that can only handle one input at a time, throttle or pas, and that's it.

Unless you have experience of this happening to you and some idea what you did to fix it.
 

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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
6,380
205
55
West Sx RH
#16
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RayPooley

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jan 8, 2019
8
1
#17
Tianjin Santroll web site only shows up a 36v brushed and 48v brushless controller.
Your pic is an 18a controller.
The controller doesn't show up on their web site.
http://maggie0351.en.busytrade.com/products.html
Where did you get that info from? I can't see any ebike controllers on their webiste. I presume the 18a you refer to is a 36V controller given that's the nominal voltage for this bike.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
6,380
205
55
West Sx RH
#18
Where did you get that info from? I can't see any ebike controllers on their webiste. I presume the 18a you refer to is a 36V controller given that's the nominal voltage for this bike.
The controller pic has the voltage and amps on the label.
WZKD is their coding 3618 relates to voltage & amps.
Click on the link in #16 not only current controllers available but you can message @ Maggie from there.
 

RayPooley

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jan 8, 2019
8
1
#19
The controller pic has the voltage and amps on the label.
WZKD is their coding 3618 relates to voltage & amps.
Click on the link in #16 not only current controllers available but you can message @ Maggie from there.
You know? I never even saw that link. Cheers.