Hello!

[ColinJTod]

Hi everyone.

If you are a CycleChat member, you will know me as ColinJ there. (I tried to register with that name here but was told that the name has already been reserved by someone, though I can't find any posts by him.)

I don't need an electric bike (yet!) but I have a friend who wants one and I offered to do the research for her. She was in danger of buying something really cheap and nasty. She owns my old non-suspension steel mountain bike which I think could make a decent e-bike with the addition of a suitable conversion kit. I would fit it for her.

We have a lot of steep hills around here (Calder Valley, West Yorkshire) and I suspect that they would be better handled by a crank-drive motor rather than a hub one but I'll spend a few days reading existing threads on Pedelecs to see what the pros and cons are. I'm sure that I will have lots of questions later on.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Brittas]

I wouldn't write off the Bafang SWX02 geared hub for hills with a decent 17Ah battery.

 

[Benjahmin]

Hi Colin,
Both are capable of hill climbing, the higher torque hubs are pretty awesome.
Cranks drives have both the advantage and disadvantage of using the gearing. Using the bikes gearing to keep the motor in it's rev range ensures cool efficient running and battery use. Does require some mechanical sympathy from the rider to achieve this. However it means that steep hills can be climbed at really low speed without straining the motor. The disadvantage is that, working through the gears, the riders cadence is dictated by the motors requirements - the two don't always coincide. Also the combination of motor and rider power through the drive train means that gear changing has to be carefully managed, especially under strain on hills, and again requires mechanical sympathy from the rider. Some crank drives with internal controllers do seem to suffer from controller burn out.
Hubs are a less technical ride, cadence being set purely to the riders requirement. They really are point and go and are robust and simple to repair, but seem pretty bullet proof.
Hill climbing speed needs to be kept, as much as possible, at or above 50% of the motors top speed ( so around 8mph). Living in West Wales I achieve this on most hills (24 gear hybrid) with occaisional speeds down to 6mph on short really steep bits. My motor (Ezee mk2) has never even felt warm, however the controller does get hot. There are different winding codes for hub motors which determine the rpm achievable. Those wound for lower rpm will develop better hill climbing torque at the expense of top speed.
There is endless debate about which is better. Both work well and, in the end, it's a rider choice.
Hope this gives you a start.

 

[ColinJTod]

Thanks, Brittas and Benjahmin.

My friend isn't interested in speed. She just wants to get up onto the hills away from the traffic, and tootle about enjoying the scenery. I imagine that the average speed of rides would probably be 10 mph or less and the 15.5 mph assistance speed would only be exceeded freewheeling downhill.

I have over 30 years experience cycling round here so I know that she will regularly encounter 10% climbs, often come across 15%, and sometimes have to tackle 20-25%. She would not want to be walking a heavy bike up some of the very long hard climbs that I do, and that she may want to join me on. I know that walk assist may be available (and I think that would be useful for emergencies) but generally the bike should cope with pretty much anything we are likely to encounter.

She is tall, only weighs about 10 stone, and is 'hill walking fit', so I think with the help of a good motor and a big battery (and a few months to build up some cycling fitness) hilly rides of 40+ miles should be possible. It would be nice to eventually stretch that to 100 km (62 miles) but that might be asking too much unless I can persuade her to supply a bigger proportion of the power than I think she has in mind. She wants to put a reasonable effort in, so is not looking for the equivalent of a moped. I'm thinking that the battery should be at least 500 Wh?

One point that I hadn't considered is motor noise. She watched an ebike review video with me. I was concentrating on how well the bike went up the hills, but she was distracted by the sound of the motor. She found its buzzy whine unpleasant and said that it would spoil her enjoyment of the countryside. Once she pointed it out, I saw what she meant and agreed with her. So, whatever system is chosen has to be as near silent as feasible. Any motor noise must be subtle , not too harsh.

If we go the conversion route, I think that the budget could be £700-800. If she decided to get a complete bike then she would spend a few hundred pounds more but I'm not sure that what she wants/needs would be available for significantly less than £1,500?

She spotted cheap(-ish) conversion kits on Amazon/eBay. I know it is a lot cheaper to get them direct from China but I don't want to potentially end up in the position of having to strip down her bike again and send faulty parts back to China! I'd want to buy from a UK dealer.

I'll spend an hour or two reading on Pedelecs this evening and see what I can find out.

 

[Fat Rat]

Hi welcome and happy hunting

 

[Woosh]

She is tall, only weighs about 10 stone, and is 'hill walking fit', so I think with the help of a good motor and a big battery (and a few months to build up some cycling fitness) hilly rides of 40+ miles should be possible. It would be nice to eventually stretch that to 100 km (62 miles) but that might be asking too much unless I can persuade her to supply a bigger proportion of the power than I think she has in mind. She wants to put a reasonable effort in, so is not looking for the equivalent of a moped. I'm thinking that the battery should be at least 500 Wh?

seems to me that a Woosh Rambla would suit her well:

The Rambla | Powerful Crank Drive Step Through Electric Bikes with 14AH semi-hidden battery from Woosh

The Woosh Rambla is the most recent step through bike from Woosh with a large 36V * 14AH semi-hidden battery, Bafang powerful MaxDrive motor, will suit tall, sporty riders.

wooshbikes.co.uk

The bike is very quiet and feels very much like riding a good push bike. The battery is 36V 14AH, she should be able to get 50 miles out of it at her weight.

 

[ColinJTod]

seems to me that a Woosh Rambla would suit her well:

The Rambla | Powerful Crank Drive Step Through Electric Bikes with 14AH semi-hidden battery from Woosh

The Woosh Rambla is the most recent step through bike from Woosh with a large 36V * 14AH semi-hidden battery, Bafang powerful MaxDrive motor, will suit tall, sporty riders.

wooshbikes.co.uk

The bike is very quiet and feels very much like riding a good push bike. The battery is 36V 14AH, she should be able to get 50 miles out of it at her weight.

Thanks, you could be right! I have been looking at your website but for some reason didn't spot that one. Is it a very recent addition to your range (past few weeks)?

My friend does like a fairly upright cycling position, so that aspect looks good too.

I'll get her to take a look later.

 

[Woosh]

Thanks, you could be right! I have been looking at your website but for some reason didn't spot that one. Is it a very recent addition to your range (past few weeks)?

My friend does like a fairly upright cycling position, so that aspect looks good too.

I'll get her to take a look later.

it was first on sale before the lockdown and sold out more quickly than we expected. My guess it was due to the Covid effect.
The next batch arrives end of August.

 

[vfr400]

At only 10 stone (64 kg) a hub-motor will have more than enough torque. I use the rule that you should use hub-motors for roads and light trails, and crank motors for proper off-road stuff.

She might like this one, which is only 17kg and good for 40 to 50 miles. It has the Aikema motor that's a really good climber because of its high internal reduction ratio.

Lift - Lightweight dutch style electric bike with hidden battery

Our latest TQ lightweight leisure bike. Elegant, powerful, silent. An all-rounder brilliant in the hills. We think it's the best Dutch styled electric bike in town.

www.juicybike.com

 

[Woosh]

that bike has only 10.4AH battery though.

 

[vfr400]

that bike has only 10.4AH battery though.

She's only 64kg. It'll last forever.

 

[Nealh]

She's only 64kg. It'll last forever.

It will if she doesn't use the assistance .
Yes at 10 stone it will give many miles of range.

 

[ColinJTod]

She is concerned about bike weight. Obviously, the motor would normally be making that pretty irrelevant, but the nightmare scenario would be to run out of battery power on the wrong side of a huge hill. Weight would be a slight issue getting the bike on and off trains and over the small step in and out of her house. IMO 23 kg is not a showstopper weight. I have wheeled some bikes weighing well over 30 kg and they felt damn heavy to me, and I am a 6' 1"/ 14 stone man. That kind of thing would be way too heavy, but I haven't looked at many bikes over 24-25 kg.

TBH though, 64 kg rider + 3 kg of extra stuff (tools, food, drink, jacket etc.) + 23 kg bike is only about 8% heavier than 64 + 3 + 16.5. If I were choosing a bike for myself, I would rather have 16.5 kg than 23 kg, but I would rather have more battery than I needed than less than I needed otherwise I wouldn't bother with an ebike in the first place!

The Juicy lift would appeal on weight, but not so much on range and price.

I liked the look of the Whoosh Faro and it was more in my pal's price range. I know that the internal battery is fairly limited but it would probably do for shortish local hilly rides. (Range?) I read that there might be an option for adding an external battery later, but then we would be back with pricier and heavier so going straight for the Rambla would have made more sense.

I saw a few bikes at £1,500+ that looked interesting but my friend is reluctant to spend that much.

Availability is a factor too. I don't know what timescale my friend is thinking of for her purchase but I doubt that she will ride in the winter so she'd want to buy sooner rather than later.

Oh, the other thing that I forgot to mention is that she hates pedalling quickly. I have ridden up moderate climbs with her on her unassisted bike but she normally hops off at the first sign of a steep ramp. I tell her that she hasn't even bothered to use the smallest ring on the triple and she tells me that she hates the feeling of her legs whizzing round and hardly making any progress. She'd probably want to be pedalling an ebike at 40-60 rpm so that would have to be taken into account with torque, motor noise etc.

 

[Nealh]

Mid drives prefer to be span quite fast on inclines, a hub motor doesn't care too much as you can simply ramp up the assist level/current level. A 201 rpm hub motor or a 185 rpm one is ideal for inclines and slower speed.

 

[ColinJTod]

Mid drives prefer to be span quite fast on inclines, a hub motor doesn't care too much as you can simply ramp up the assist level/current level. A 201 rpm hub motor or a 185 rpm one is ideal for inclines and slower speed.

I was wondering about that after posting about my friend's low cadence. I am a 'spinner' so on hard climbs I use the lowest gear that I have and spin away. A mid drive would suit me, but maybe not my friend, since she seems determined NOT to become a spinner!

Ramping up the assist/current level for a hub motor sounds like they are running less efficiently at low revs. In fact, I did read that somewhere. Are you saying that some hub motors are revving higher internally but gearing their revs down to suit the low wheel speed?

Do hub motors always use a fixed internal gear ratio, or is there some way that they can switch/be switched to a different ratio to suit the conditions? (I'm not talking about the derailleur gears used by the rider.)

 

[Woosh]

She'd probably want to be pedalling an ebike at 40-60 rpm so that would have to be taken into account with torque, motor noise etc.

she should be OK with the Rambla. It has 5 assist levels and 100NM max at the chainring. Trading torque for revs.
At her weight, she should be able to climb pretty steep hills at that sort of revs but still has to change down to gear 3.
It has a revoshift so changing gears is pretty quick and easy.
She needs to be 5ft8 or more, the Rambla is a medium to large bike.

 

[Nealh]

Hub motors use different winding speeds some are wound for lower rpm so ideal for climbing but not overly fast on the open road, other are fast wound for speed on the open road but very inefficient on steep inclines. It is horses for courses so you have to buy the right rpm hub motor to suit your needs.

 

[ColinJTod]

she should be OK with the Rambla. It has 5 assist levels and 100NM max at the chainring. Trading torque for revs.
At her weight, she should be able to climb pretty steep hills at that sort of revs but still has to change down to gear 3.
It has a revoshift so changing gears is pretty quick and easy.
She needs to be 5ft8 or more, the Rambla is a medium to large bike.

I have emailed her a link to the page on your website. I'm sure that she will get back to me later...

She must be 5' 9" or 5' 10". The adjustable stem and swept-back bars with a bit of rise should enable her to get her favoured upright position.

I was wondering why the Faro and Rambla are left with very dark-looking paint jobs and no significant decals? Others in your range are less, er, stealthy! (It wouldn't bother me, but I wonder if she will mention it without me asking...?)

I forgot to ask before... Is any customisation possible? For example, a different saddle? Maybe a different size chainring to suit slowish cadence/slowish road speed?

Hub motors use different winding speeds some are wound for lower rpm so ideal for climbing but not overly fast on the open road, other are fast wound for speed on the open road but very inefficient on steep inclines. It is horses for courses so you have to buy the right rpm hub motor to suit your needs.

Another (slight) minus for hub motors and (slight) plus for mid drives is the difficulty/ease of fixing rear wheel punctures.

 

[Woosh]

I was wondering why the Faro and Rambla are left with very dark-looking paint jobs and no significant decals?

I much prefer my bikes not attracting thieves. Also, we sell mainly to the young at heart with feeble legs.
There is only a Woosh logo on the head tube and an EN15194 sticker with our name on it. It does not say I am electric and expensive.

For example, a different saddle? Maybe a different size chainring to suit slowish cadence/slowish road speed?

we can fit any saddle that you see on another of our bike. Lots of customers prefer a ladies saddle, we simply call them 'wide saddle'. We also fit longer seat posts for those over 6ft1. There is no charge for these changes.
We also fit Ergon grips, Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres, trailer hitch at component cost.
Chainring is a different matter. We much prefer customers keep the chainring as is fitted.

The Rambla's saddle is made by Selle Royale:

 

[vfr400]

Do hub motors always use a fixed internal gear ratio, or is there some way that they can switch/be switched to a different ratio to suit the conditions? (I'm not talking about the derailleur gears used by the rider.)

Differnt motors have different winding speeds and different internal reduction ratios, which affect how they behave. Only the Xiongda has switchable high and low internal ratios, but there are no OEM bikes in this country that use it, though you can buy it as a kit from China.

At 64kg, she doesn't need anything like that. It suits a 100kg rider who has to deal with very steep hills. I think you're over-specifying for her. Virtually any light-weight hub-motored ebike will be able to give her what she wants. Some deliver the assistance in a smoother way than others. The cheaper ones are not normally as good as the more expensive ones.