How about suggesting to DoT...

[rooel]

... that the new eurosceptic government abandon the proposed adoption of the EU regulations on electric bicycles by seeking a derogation? It would be a fairly harmless assertion of English sovereignty, right to rule the waves, etc and would enable us all to continue to buy start-from-scratch throttle models which are so beneficial for a quick getaway at lights and for those with weak thighs and knees.

Perhaps a deluge of letters landing on Conservative Euro deniers would do the trick.

 

[eddieo]

The day I write to a Tory for help will be the day hell freezes over

 

[flecc]

A non starter I'm afraid Rooel.

The fact that transport crosses borders by it's very nature dictates harmonisation of construction and use laws in a borderless Europe.

The alternative is the silly situation that exists in the USA where riding across a border can result in a prosecution because the individual States can overrule the Federal Law. This is the insanity that results when each has it's own infinite variations:

US e-bike law, Federal and by individual State

(PDF copy on my personal website)
.

 

[eddieo]

I have said this before but probably worth saying again.

trailer law is different in EU country's (talking about towing small car on motorhome not bike trailer)

as It stands in the UK you can tow a small car on an A frame, you cannot in some other EU countries where a trailer is required...but you have the right to travel through these country's as it is legal in your own country

How can this be different for e bikes?

 

[flecc]

How can this be different for e bikes?

With e-bikes as with all vehicles, it's primarily construction that's legislated, what the vehicle can do, not only usage. Where usage is concerned some cross border tolerance can be shown as you say.

This is why I cited the daft US situation where it's construction law that varies widely with many differing power levels according to State.
.

 

[Alex728]

... that the new eurosceptic government abandon the proposed adoption of the EU regulations on electric bicycles by seeking a derogation? It would be a fairly harmless assertion of English sovereignty, right to rule the waves,

"harmless" until we get "disallowed" EU funding for new transport projects (after they've taken the taxes!) - or worse, middle aged English tourists find themselves being hauled up by traffic cops with pistols and being made to surrender their e-bikes as they are "illegal vehicles".

Other countries can assert their sovereignty too

Even the French are being made to abandon their scofflaw attitude to EU regulations (their ebike regulations now appear to be stricter than ours and even mopeds are being subject to stronger control!) - in fact the reality of France seems to be that strikes, demos and "people power" are eventually "dealt with" by hard men with guns, something thankfully less regular an occurence in Blighty..

BTW it was one Mr Churchill who advocated a "United States of Europe" a few decades ago..

 

[lemmy]

in fact the reality of France seems to be that strikes, demos and "people power" are eventually "dealt with" by hard men with guns, something thankfully less regular an occurence in Blighty..

I lived in France for several years. Demonstrators are not dealt with by guns. People demonstrate (and occasionally riot) there, just as they do here. The last big - and they were big - riots were the Arabs from the banlieue around 5 years ago. They were dealt with in just the same way they would have been in the UK, police with riot shields and batons.

As far as I know and can Google, the only people shot in civil demonstrations in the last 40 years in Britain and France were 13 Irish in Londonderry by paras.

No political point here, just fact.

On another point of fact, I doubt that a hub motor has a faster step off than a Panasonic unit. Flecc might know?

My bike in 3rd gear with a good push appears to outgun a BMW motorcycle even - for about 3 metres

 

[Dynamic Position]

A non starter I'm afraid Rooel.

The fact that transport crosses borders by it's very nature dictates harmonisation of construction and use laws in a borderless Europe.

The alternative is the silly situation that exists in the USA where riding across a border can result in a prosecution because the individual States can overrule the Federal Law. This is the insanity that results when each has it's own infinite variations:

US e-bike law, Federal and by individual State

(PDF copy on my personal website)
.

Surely the UK could do this by using British Standards and apply a warning label "FOR USE IN UNITED KINGDOM ONLY" if it does not meet EU requirements? Has a precedent not been set with the fast S Class e-bikes allowed in Germany?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Surely the UK could do this by using British Standards and apply a warning label "FOR USE IN UNITED KINGDOM ONLY" if it does not meet EU requirements? Has a precedent not been set with the fast S Class e-bikes allowed in Germany?

Good point!

 

[flecc]

Surely the UK could do this by using British Standards and apply a warning label "FOR USE IN UNITED KINGDOM ONLY" if it does not meet EU requirements? Has a precedent not been set with the fast S Class e-bikes allowed in Germany?

I can't see Europe ever accepting that, and in any case, British Standards have been aiming for better matching with DIN and other EU standards, all part of European integration.

There's no one-nation precedent as such for the S class since any EU country can have that same separate class if the national government agrees. As I've previously said though, that won't happen in Britain since we always take a restrictive line in such matters and our cycling infrastructure isn't suitable.

For 45 years now with just one exception, Britain has relentlessly pursued a path of ever reducing speed limits in all spheres and I don't think the concept of permitting any higher speed for anything is conceivable now by the DfT and politicians. Since that one exception was for e-bikes, from 12 mph to 15 mph assisted, the chance of getting a second increase I'd rate as zero.
.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I can't see Europe ever accepting that, and in any case, British Standards have been aiming for better matching with DIN and other EU standards, all part of European integration.

There's no one-nation precedent as such for the S class since any EU country can have that same separate class if the national government agrees. As I've previously said though, that won't happen in Britain since we always take a restrictive line in such matters and our cycling infrastructure isn't suitable.

For 45 years now with just one exception, Britain has relentlessly pursued a path of ever reducing speed limits in all spheres and I don't think the concept of permitting any higher speed for anything is conceivable now by the DfT and politicians. Since that one exception was for e-bikes, from 12 mph to 15 mph assisted, the chance of getting a second increase I'd rate as zero.
.

Well it seems that the Germans have more balls than the British then, how sad!

 

[flecc]

Well it seems that the Germans have more balls than the British then, how sad!

That's for sure, I'm old enough to remember when they took on the whole of Europe almost single handed.

However, we are not alone, quite the opposite, since no other EU country has adopted the high speed S class either.
.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

That's for sure, I'm old enough to remember when they took on the whole of Europe almost single handed.

However, we are not alone, quite the opposite, since no other EU country has adopted the high speed S class either.
.

Germany won then, as they can do as they like, and we are a flock of sheep!

 

[Alex728]

I lived in France for several years. Demonstrators are not dealt with by guns. People demonstrate (and occasionally riot) there, just as they do here. The last big - and they were big - riots were the Arabs from the banlieue around 5 years ago. They were dealt with in just the same way they would have been in the UK, police with riot shields and batons.

I've got a few young French friends from the dance music scene (who ironically left FR for the UK around 2005 when it all kicked off ) - what they explained is that no one actually gets shot when things kick off in France (at least in recent times) but there are a lot of weapons brandished by the cops to give a show of strength, and a lot more use of military style vehicles. the idea is more to look hard than to use deadly force on a whim - although cops are also a bit more like "ashes to ashes" when dealing with certain suspects!

This is a strong contrast to Britain where armed cops are usually only seen at transit points or certain inner city flashpoints (but even in London I've not seen them that often and only seen cops with weapons on display once in Ipswich).

There is also a lot more use of anti-personnel irritant gas sprays and flash grenades than in the UK when the cops want to make a point about moving people on. Of course the baton charges and other tactics are the same across the EU - I've seen things get heavy enough in certain forests in Suffolk when the locals/cops have had enough of raves!

Another paradox of France is for all the so-called "people power" it appears the central government are easily able to disregard the views of nimbys for issues as diverse things as nuclear power stations or finding the space for a large dance music festival in comparison to Britain where we have endless "right to reply" and "consultations". In France the bureaucrats make these things happen, whether or not the locals want them to.

however when people on here were comparing ebike specs I was reading the websites (I can understand French fairly well); they seemed much quicker to abandon the throttles or limit them to use alongside pedals than even the UK, and all FR bikes were 250W max. I also found a site about small mopeds and there were a lot of warnings about new laws and restrictions, giving the lie to at least some stereotypes about traffic regulations being more lax there.

Actually my friends who occasionally go over to dance music festivals in France say the traffic cops there are stricter than in the UK when it comes to having the right safety gear in the car (warning triangle etc and they will fine foreign tourists without this stuff!)

 

[flecc]

However, there is a distinction. The Germans are a notoriously law abiding people, thoroughly disapproving of any breaches, so they do stick with what they are permitted.

We UK e-bikers by contrast have long been doing our own thing and failing to comply with many parts of the legislation, so in reality there's probably little difference in personal experiences.

I prefer that second way and have long admired the Italian attitude, happily accept all the laws into the statute book and then ignore all of them.

P.S. Having lived there and experienced it, I agree with Alex that the French police are much stricter about all traffic law than the British police.
.

 

[Dynamic Position]

Germany won then, as they can do as they like, and we are a flock of sheep!

The German Government have the technical ability and we seem to be quite happy to be led by sheep! What Pedelec members need to do is form The e-Transport Party in time for 2015 Election.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

However, there is a distinction. The Germans are a notoriously law abiding people, thoroughly disapproving of any breaches, so they do stick with what they are permitted.

We UK e-bikers by contrast have long been doing our own thing and failing to comply with many parts of the legislation, so in reality there's probably little difference in personal experiences.

I prefer that second way and have long admired the Italian attitude, happily accept all the laws into the statute book and then ignore all of them.
.

I am a law abiding person, BUT the law as it stands makes me a criminal for doing 20 mph and having a bike that's just over the legal limit! 20 mph is safer on the road for me! I have few cycle paths where I live so have to fight it out with the traffic.

 

[Alex728]

However, we are not alone, quite the opposite, since no other EU country has adopted the high speed S class either.
.

Maybe there simply isn't the demand? Even other European nations with better cycling infrastructure permit various forms of smaller petrol powered mopeds to be used on the cycle lanes, which must be way cheaper than the S class e-bikes..

 

[Dynamic Position]

However, there is a distinction. The Germans are a notoriously law abiding people, thoroughly disapproving of any breaches, so they do stick with what they are permitted.

We UK e-bikers by contrast have long been doing our own thing and failing to comply with many parts of the legislation, so in reality there's probably little difference in personal experiences.

I prefer that second way and have long admired the Italian attitude, happily accept all the laws into the statute book and then ignore all of them.

P.S. Having lived there and experienced it, I agree with Alex that the French police are much stricter about all traffic law than the British police.
.

I prefer the second way too. The law could be set allowing individuals to exercise freedom of choice, providing they do not interfere with other peoples health, safety and freedoms. In the event of violtion where others suffer as a result the legalities of the law should take over.
The Germans have the right idea with their autobahns, where there is no speed limit but if you cause problems for others then you have to accept the consequences

 

[Alex728]

I am a law abiding person, BUT the law as it stands makes me a criminal for doing 20 mph and having a bike that's just over the legal limit! 20 mph is safer on the road for me! I have few cycle paths where I live so have to fight it out with the traffic.

a copper was on another thread who pointed out unless a serious crash happened the constabulary would be extremely unlikely to care about fast ebikes, especially for a law abiding person who doesn't otherwise attract their attention...