How do I go slower?

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Have taken a number of potential customers out for test rides over the last few weeks,most are experienced cyclists but new to electric bikes.
The most common question is how do I go slower-they feel that on flat terrain especially they are going faster than comfortable. I must say following them they make much use of the brakes and stop pedalling-the result is their progress is stoccato and much waste of battery energy.
Most do not appreciate how important the PAS controller is to control,they think it is for energy conservation only not for speed control-they have the temptation to set power on high and leave it in that position whatever the terrain or the wind direction or the speed they wish to achieve
I now spend more time educating the use of the power levels according to conditions and note their progress is much smoother. Range is not a factor on these short rides but I am certain that range would be considerably extended.
This may be sucking eggs to experienced e-bikers but I have had some customers who felt they were not in control of the bike and would not have purchased because of this,once they understood that they needed to make frequent choice of the PAS they were much happier.
Dave Elderfield
Kudos Cycles
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
I'm sure that's true Dave. Only recently we had a member join who'd bought a folding e-bike and found the take-off so terrifying that's he'd never dared to ride it and was looking for an alternative. His opinion that these machines were far too powerful would amuse most in here, but it shows how a newcomer can perceive them.

I had a similar experience with my brother some while ago. As well as being a life long driver, he was a club cyclist for many years and well used to two wheel speed, but when he first tried my smallest e-bike, to my surprise he was clearly frightened by the experience and had been too scared to open the throttle for more than seconds at a time.
 

mike killay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2011
3,012
1,627
It is probably far easier for a motorcyclist, used to gently twisting the throttle. Most motorcyclists on first trying an e-bike will find it woefully short of power. Explain to your customers that PAS position 1 is for 8 mph, 2 is for 10mph, and 3 for 12 and over. Although not exactly true, this will get them into the right way. For bikes with a powerful pedelec take off, suggest that they only switch on when they are moving and try to keep the PAS in position one until they are more experienced. Virtually all of them will be car drivers and will readily accept that they have to learn how to ride an e-bike.
 

Synthman

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 31, 2010
417
0
Oxford
Never had this problem. I find throttles exremely useful and have no issue maintaining whatever speed I want, whether it's crawling pace, or full speed. The pedal sensor is a different matter, there's a slight delay in power kicking in and out, and it's full on/off power and makes it hard to keep low speeds, especially in a line of slow moving traffic.
 

JuicyBike

Trade Member
Jan 26, 2009
1,671
527
Derbyshire
It's all to do with brain conditioning.

Tell new riders to "pretend to pedal" or "pedal in slow motion" in a lower gear.

The 50% power they put in themselves will feel like "nothing" or "slow motion pedalling" because of how they've learned what "pedalling" is, or feels like on a traditional bike. But after an hour or so legs will begin to ache.

That's true for our bikes anyway...
 

Jon

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2011
182
0
Stoke on Trent
www.tangit.co.uk
If these people are threating over this well these bikes are not for them frankly. Ive heard it all now soon the roads will be full of ditherers in cars and ditherers on bikes and as a result we will all be dithered to death. Its not an imediate 15.5mph take off it takes a few 100m to get up to speed depending on weight and wind. I find the throttle very helpful of delicate moves going around stuff and if i ease the throttle i can control the speed. Alternatively like you guys said just turn the power down
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
I think its a lot to do with rider experience. Before I got my ebike I was already comparatively fast cyclist anyway so used to going about at 15-20mph rather than 10-15mph - I was too busy enjoying being able to do this effortlessly to be scared...
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Thank you for your replies,the comments are well considered. It should be explained that these cyclists are not wimps-in fact downhill I find myself chasing after them,some are used to riding conventional bikes at speed.
It is in medium speed situations with traffic or pedestrians around them that until they fully understood the function of the PAS display they felt not in complete control of the speed of the bike.
They were all there for different reasons,wives who wanted to keep up with their partners,experienced cyclists who were for medical reasons struggling with hills,fit riders who wanted to commute without arriving at work sweaty and some who just wanted to experience the e-bike sensation.
Without exception they enjoyed the ride,some have placed current or forward orders or want to look at other bikes to compare.
We are lucky that we have a ride nearby including a lovely ride along the seafront promenade.
We have our open day coming up on August 13,I am trying to decide on a way of introducing electric bike riding to as many people as possible,especially those who are new to the experience without inconveniencing the local populus.
Dave Elderfield
KudosCycles.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Well, you can turn off the power and ride unassisted...or buy a crank drive bike, much more controllable and natural to ride.....
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
To ride unassisted is defeating the object of what these people are trying to achieve,in low PAS setting it offers enough assistance to ease the effort but still maintain control and answers most requirements,just a liitle education needed.
I am looking at crank drives for the future but,ignoring cost, they appear to have one current major problem...all the crank drives are pedal effort sensitive....the more effort you put into the pedals the more the motor assumes you need assistance and thus the more power the motor supplies. Surely,in many cicumstances this is exactly the opposite what you may require...say if you are tired and asking the motor to provide more effort and the rider less is there a way of achieving this?
As to cost,most of the crank drive bikes appear to cost in excess of £1500 and some considerably more,that is more than many wish to spend....the cost needs to fall below £1000 before these will be a popular alternative to the hub drive,IMHO.
Dave Elderfield
KudosCycles
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
You pays for what you gets....Hub bikes tend to be more powerful and cheaper, but a bit of a blunt instrument and less refined.....probably why a lot of women prefer crank drives.

Many of us are prepared to pay more, for a more refined cycling experience. I have both and enjoy the hub bike immensely. But you definitely have to put in more effort with a crank drive but they can feel very rewarding, especially when it comes to hill climbing where they tend to be better? nothings black and white......
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
Dave, your are forgetting the cadence aspect of a crank drive system (thinking of the Panasonic system here). As you tire or slow the cadence, say on a hill, the system will provide more power to assist you. It seems counter intuitive at first but you soon get used to it. The one true flaw is the lack of throttle to get away from standstill which a number of disabled forum members could not do with out.
 

hoppy

Member
May 25, 2010
330
50
Dave,have a look at the Tonaro range-throttle-controlled crank drive and non torque-sensitive pedelec sensor with three assist levels. I've had mine over two months now and reckon it's the best ebike available. Price was only 870 then, but still only 1015
 

fishingpaul

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 24, 2007
871
86
I think you have it the wrong way around dave,most crank drive bikes give more rider assistance at slow pedal speeds,and very little assistance at higher rider effort pedal speeds.on hub motor bikes a throttle giving the exact required assistance when it is wanted,and no assistance without use of the throttle puts the rider feeling in full control, rather than pas cutting in with a foot just resting on a pedal and giving unexpected and sometimes unwanted assistance.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
I am looking at crank drives for the future but,ignoring cost, they appear to have one current major problem...all the crank drives are pedal effort sensitive....the more effort you put into the pedals the more the motor assumes you need assistance and thus the more power the motor supplies.
I don't see this as a problem, it's simply a muscle power multiplier making anyone from two to three times as strong in any circumstance. E-bikes aren't mobility vehicles and aren't there to compensate for those odd occasions when people feel tired. They exist for anyone able to cycle but no longer at full cycling fitness for their riding circumstances.
 

mike killay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2011
3,012
1,627
I don't see this as a problem, it's simply a muscle power multiplier making anyone from two to three times as strong in any circumstance. E-bikes aren't mobility vehicles and aren't there to compensate for those odd occasions when people feel tired. They exist for anyone able to cycle but no longer at full cycling fitness for their riding circumstances.
Not too sure I agree with you on this Flecc. I live on top of a steep hill, I normally tackle it in first or second on my Tonaro. The motor gives its full 200 watts while I pedal as well as I can. Inevitably, as this hill is at the end of my ride, I will be fatigued when I reach it. If I was using the limiting panasonic system, i would have to shorten my rides to ensure that there was enough left 'In the Bank' ie me!
 

lemmy

Esteemed Pedelecer
I think you can't have ridden a Panasonic, Mike. Even on the steepest hills, if you drop down to a low gear hardly any effort is required at all.

Also, someone remarks about it being difficult to ride slowly on a Panasonic. That is simply factually untrue. I can ride mine powered down to way below walking pace with no problem at all. It requires no skill any different from doing so on an unpowered bike.
 

steveindenmark

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 10, 2011
406
2
I don't see this as a problem, it's simply a muscle power multiplier making anyone from two to three times as strong in any circumstance. E-bikes aren't mobility vehicles and aren't there to compensate for those odd occasions when people feel tired. They exist for anyone able to cycle but no longer at full cycling fitness for their riding circumstances.
I think we need to get away from the idea that electric bikes are only for the elderly and the infirm. I am new to this and that is the impression I had.

I am 53 and regularly take my Trek Lexa SL for a 50km spin out before breakfast at the weekend. I also have a mountain bike and a Bacchetta recumbent. I would call myself a fit cyclist.

I stumbled across electric bikes by accident and then found a Tonaro Enduro on the web and had it sent over to Denmark. I use it for my 43km round commute every day and I like the ease of how I can do it at 5am in the morning. It is not a replacement for my other bikes and I can still get a good workout on the Enduro.

Electric bikes fill the whole range of bikes from full blown mountain bikes, the Tonaro Bighit for example, to the sit up and beg shoppers which most people associate with electric bikes.

I think companies are realising that there is a big untapped market of younger riders out there who can enjoy electric bikes which is why we are seeing a lot of "Sport" type models on the market.

I use my Enduro for commuting and for riding the forest tracks where I live. It is not the type of riding you would really associate with electric bikes but it is really good fun.

It is time to start promoting electric bikes for the young and not just for the elderly.

Steve
 

jbond

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2010
411
2
Ware, Herts
www.voidstar.com
It is time to start promoting electric bikes for the young and not just for the elderly.Steve
+1 to this. I've been riding electric for about a year and am a long time motorcyclist. I find that there are 3 or four modes I cycle in.
- Urban
- Cruise on quiet roads
- Off road
Each mode requires a different control strategy. The bike has 4 control inputs and a hub motor.
- Throttle
- PAS
- Throttle-Pas either-or switch
- 3 way max-speed control
- Brake cut-outs
I find myself constantly juggling these and I do wonder if they could be reduced to a more intuitive and simpler set. The OP points out a particular problem which is that pure PAS mode the initial jerk when you start pedaling is off putting and potentially dangerous in an Urban setting. A throttle is much easier for the fine control at junctions and in heavy traffic. However even in Urban settings, I frequently use full power to accelerate away from junctions and merge with the traffic. Quiet road cruising is where PAS works best you can even ride hands off under power! Off road and especially steep off road hills require switching to low max speed and using the throttle not just to make it all manageable and less frightening but also to keep down the power-battery requirement. The last thing I do a lot for range is pulse and glide. Keep pedaling but pulse the PAS switch for 5 seconds at a time to keep my average speed up without using the power all the time.

This all makes me wonder if we couldn't reduce the controls with a bit of help from some electronics. I'm thinking of a modified PAS with an aggressive power-current limit and a slow ramp up, quick ramp down as the power is applied. That takes away the PAS jerk as the power comes in and provides a low consumption cruise. And then a simple button to give full power as an over-ride for full acceleration and steep hill climbing.

I haven't ridden one, but perhaps the Panasonic style crank system does all this, just in a very different way.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,763
30,349
It is time to start promoting electric bikes for the young and not just for the elderly.
I'm not promoting for the elderly Steve, just commenting on the reality of e-bike existence. Someone buys an e-bike because they can't or won't put in the effort required to do all their cycling manually.

That's not about being old, it's about either not being able to, or not desiring to, put in the effort under particular circumstances. When one looks into the not desiring to, it's also a form of can't in the sense of not feeling entirely up to it manually, as it is for your early morning run.