Keeping up with a roadie

[RobF]

I - perhaps unwisely - attempted a 100 mile ride with a roadie.

We started from Manchester Piccadilly station at 8.45am with the intention of reaching Llandudno in North Wales for a train back at 5.30pm.

Because of the travelling, I used my MH7, which is a 20" wheel dongle free Bosch bike.

I knew I was in trouble within a couple of hundred metres of leaving the station, the roadie's cruising pace was about 16mph, leaving me fighting the speed limit.

Despite this I managed to hang on to his wheel, although I think he was easing up a bit.

Where I could score was on restarts at traffic lights, I could get up to speed while he was still fiddling with his clipless pedals.

He got a puncture after about 30 miles, which rather unkindly I was pleased about because it gave me a chance of a rest.

Despite the speed limit, I was able to make quicker progress on the open sections when I deployed full power.

Slightly faster climbing and generally quicker acceleration made a difference.

Even so, I couldn't drop the roadie on climbs, he could get up most things close to 15mph, same as me.

It became apparent we were not going to make Llandudno in time for the train, so a decision was taken to duff the lunch stop and head for Rhyl to get the train there.

We managed this with about 15 minutes to spare, although I had to push hard for the last 20 miles to do it.

I took all three batteries, two 11ah, and one eight, so a theoretical capacity of 30ah.

I changed the first battery with two blobs left, exhausted the second, and there wasn't much left in the third when we reached Rhyl - 86 miles.

I'm not certain the roadie could have made Llandudno in time, even he conceded traffic lights and junctions had knocked his moving average more than he thought it would.

I might have made it had I been able to deploy full power all the way, but I'm fairly sure my battery capacity would not have allowed that.

The bike performed faultlessly, although three batteries is too much dead weight.

Assuming my Bosch batteries are not quite holding an 'as new' charge, I reckon I used about 22-24ah.

It would be fascinating to know how much better a lighter and fitter rider than me would have got on.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Did you use the new coastal cyclepath. If so, can you tell us anything about it?

If you want to try again all the way to Llandudno, I wouldn't mind riding with you from Mostyn.

 

[RobF]

Did you use the new coastal cyclepath. If so, can you tell us anything about it?

If you want to try again all the way to Llandudno, I wouldn't mind riding with you from Mostyn.

Yes, we trundled out from Connah's Quay beside the Dee estuary and turned left at Talacre before getting our feet wet.

One of the problems - for me - of pushing hard was I didn't get the chance to take much in.

Looks like we must have gone through Mostyn, although I don't recall it.

We were also denied the last 14 miles or so of the path to Llandudno, which I understand is one of the nicer bits, being wide and flat.

The part of the path we did ride was nice enough, well-made, not many restriction gates, and a bit wider than a lot of paths I've been on.

It's also flat, and we were lucky in that there was very little wind.

Generally, the wind would be against you going in that direction.

A good ride if you like wide open spaces, although to be a bit picky, it could become samey after 10 or so miles.

Thanks for the offer of company, although it's unlikely all the logistical circumstances will coincide again for me to be able to repeat the experience.

On t'other hand, my brother has a holiday lodge north of Shrewsbury, so I might make you an offer if I am staying in the next few months.

I could easily bring the AVE to your place, so we could set out from there.

 

[RobF]

Looking at the map again, the bit through Mostyn to Talacre is on the A548.

The roadie reckoned the only alternative is to cut inland a few miles, but that's very hilly.

The A548 is a fast, mostly two-lane road which many cyclists would want to avoid.

There are bits of cycle path, but not along the full stretch.

You can cut through one or two villages, but a lot of the miles have to be done on the main road.

The roadie, who knows the area well, said most cyclists just accept they have to suffer the grimness of the A road to get to the proper coast path at Talacre.

 

[4bound]

I did part of this ride in the opposite direction last month although on my touring bike, not electrically assisted. We took the train from Shotton to Conwy and then cycled from there to Llandudno, around the Great Orme ( which was a great experience) and then along to the coast path to Prestatyn, then inland following NCN5 until rejoining the coast at Baguilt, from where along the coast path to Shotton and then over the Greenway cycle path back to the Wirral. We didn't ride on the A548 more than 100 yards and thought the cyclepath was excellent.
NCN 5 over the mountains was very tough though and I would have found it a lot easier on my Kalkhoff! We tried to follow it all, but in some places we seemed to mislay it.

I have pasted here a link to my record of it on Strava - if you scroll down the page you can see how hilly it was.

https://app.strava.com/activities/270276907

Which route did you follow from Manchester to Connah's Quay?

I'd be happy to join anyone who wants a ride over some or all of this route or just generally in the area. The coast path beyond Conwy to Anglesey is also well worth doing and keeps you off the main roads.

 

[RobF]

Which route did you follow from Manchester to Connah's Quay?

This is pretty much it, although the roadie was tinkering with the route for a ride he's organising later this month.

He told me the bit from Manchester to Altrincham is from a mate who commutes it, so it's been well-refined over the years.

http://ridewithgps.com/routes/6878088

 

[4bound]

Thanks Rob, hope you also enjoyed the visit to the Eureka! There is a very good cycle path from Mickle Trafford at mile 44 to the greenway bridge at mile 56 which would have been much more pleasant cycling than the horrible A5117 but you would have had to go to a different cafe - although there is a good one just near to the start of it at mile 44. Not exclusively for cyclists though! http://www.chestercyclecity.org/?p=988

 

[RobF]

Thanks Rob, hope you also enjoyed the visit to the Eureka!

Thereby hangs a tale.

It was shut when we arrived on a Tuesday lunchtime, so I only saw the unimpressive outside of it.

Turned out that was just as well, had we stopped there - or anywhere else - for lunch, I doubt we would have made Rhyl, let alone Llandudno.

 

[4bound]

Oh dear - closed Monday Tuesday and Thursdays at present. I wonder if you would have been the first customer with an e-bike!

 

[RobF]

Oh dear - closed Monday Tuesday and Thursdays at present. I wonder if you would have been the first customer with an e-bike!

I thought about that and was steeling myself to bat back some snidey comments from roadies.

The place looked a dump to me, but I don't doubt its historical credentials.

For those wondering what we are on about:

http://www.eurekacyclistscafe.co.uk/

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I have lots of experience of trying to keep up with a roadie of very similar fitness to myself on an eBike. Its one of the joys of modern technology and my Garmin on my bikes. I can track myself on my eBike and compare directly on Strava how my pace is on lots of different sections, flat, uplill, downhill, whole rides and through towns etc etc.

it is interesting to see the results, even me on a legal eBike is faster than me on my road bike when looked at over a distance ride, the more stopping and starting there is, the faster it gets. The top end speed is lower, but the actual time it takes to get somewhere, and the amount of energy I use to get there is reduced by a good %.

 

[RobF]

I have lots of experience of trying to keep up with a roadie of very similar fitness to myself on an eBike. Its one of the joys of modern technology and my Garmin on my bikes. I can track myself on my eBike and compare directly on Strava how my pace is on lots of different sections, flat, uplill, downhill, whole rides and through towns etc etc.

it is interesting to see the results, even me on a legal eBike is faster than me on my road bike when looked at over a distance ride, the more stopping and starting there is, the faster it gets. The top end speed is lower, but the actual time it takes to get somewhere, and the amount of energy I use to get there is reduced by a good %.

I thought you might know something about this topic.

Very few roadies know the first thing about ebikes, so you are in a unique position to judge.

Even with my inferior fitness level, stop start riding through town is the one place where I could give the roadie a run for his money.

I just about kept pace at a medium assistance level, so might have been able to drop him on full power.

 

[JohnCade]

I thought you might know something about this topic.

Very few roadies know the first thing about ebikes, so you are in a unique position to judge.

Even with my inferior fitness level, stop start riding through town is the one place where I could give the roadie a run for his money.

I just about kept pace at a medium assistance level, so might have been able to drop him on full power.

You said he was doing a steady 16 mph and that was a little past your cut off. So does the Bosch cut out at exactly 15.5 mph in standard form then?

 

[RobF]

You said he was doing a steady 16 mph and that was a little past your cut off. So does the Bosch cut out at exactly 15.5 mph in standard form then?

Pretty much, although I don't think any of the kit we had is sufficiently accurate to accurately measure such fine tolerances.

For that, you would need a calibrated radar trap.

My AVE is the older Bosch control and only reads kms.

It was immediately apparent he was doing 26-28km/h - the cut off in km/h is 25.

When I reached his wheel I could see he was bowling along on the big ring at the front, but only about half way across his cassette at the back.

I reckon he could easily have upped his cadence, or pushed a higher gear, certainly on level ground.

Had we been doing only 10 miles, I could have kept pace, but I had the other 90 very much in mind.

There's not much in it, when I deployed full power from both me and the bike later in the ride, he did drop back a little, and commented I was making 'good speed'.

In other words, upping the moving average by just a couple of mph takes some effort, ebike or not.

 

[flecc]

You said he was doing a steady 16 mph and that was a little past your cut off. So does the Bosch cut out at exactly 15.5 mph in standard form then?

The German pedelec law was set at 24 kph originally, exactly matching the UK's 15 mph. Somewhat oddly, e-bikes were still being produced by them with the 24 kph cutoff long after the pan European law was introduced. The original Panasonic powered Kalkhoff Agattu of 2007/8 was set that way with a 23 tooth rear sprocket instead of the 22 tooth necessary for the EU limit, but the following Pro Connect did have the 22 tooth rear sprocket.

It's possible that Rob's AVE also has the 24 kph cutoff.
.

 

[JohnCade]

There was a thread here a couple of months ago where several people posted the speed their bikes cut out at. All the Kalkhoffs are the same at a little over 17 mph, which is the 25 kph plus the max 10% leeway. But a few other owners of different German bikes posted similar results too. So I thought that most German and Austrian bikes pushed the leeway as well.

 

[RobF]

It's possible that Rob's AVE also has the 24 kph cutoff.

That'll do me, I'm taking every excuse for lagging behind I can get.

 

[flecc]

There was a thread here a couple of months ago where several people posted the speed their bikes cut out at. All the Kalkhoffs are the same at a little over 17 mph, which is the 25 kph plus the max 10% leeway. But a few other owners of different German bikes posted similar results too. So I thought that most German and Austrian bikes pushed the leeway as well.

Yes, they've changed the Kalkhoffs now, as they did slightly on the earlier Pro Connect that I remarked on. Some makers have increasingly been more liberal in the way they interpret both power and assist speed limits, but that's far from universal. Plenty still use the lower powered motors and strict limiting as the many requests for some derestriction show.
.

 

[JohnCade]

Another reason to test ride. The Woosh I had cut out abruptly like hitting a wall at 25 kph, and the only way to make it bearable was to change it to the next possible speed which was 30 kph, or about 19 mph, and so illegal.

I’ve grown used to the almost imperceptible cut out of the Kalkhoff at 17.3 mph on my speedo and that’s not far off 19 mph and it’s legal. So any other bike I was interested in would need to have a similar cut off. I wouldn’t want to be jerked forward at 15.5 mph when a bike motor cut out again.

 

[RobF]

There's an old saying, 'a bike for every ride', so I thought about speccing the ideal bike for this one.

A dongled Bosch bike and four batteries would do it.

But I may as well have some extra grunt as well, so it would be an Oxygen 13ah MTB and two spare batteries.

About 40ah really ought to be enough, but however you divide it, it's still a lot of dead weight to carry.

No way around that I'm aware of.

The motor bit is easy to sort, carrying enough battery capacity to run the motor nearly flat out for 100 miles is the problem.