Leaving the EU

[flecc]

With a referendum in due course on whether we stay or leave, it's as well that all know what's involved in leaving, something that's certainly not true at present. For example, how many appreciate that we have to give two years notice to leave, or that we have to seek the agreement of all other member states? Or that once that's agreed, parliament will have to agree to leave too?

And once all that's achieved, the nightmare of undoing all of our many years of complex legal interlinking begins.

And what of the 2 million Britons who live elsewhere in the union, losing all their health/benefit rights or even their right to live in those other countries?

If you are interested in what's involved, the following BBC Radio 4 program available on the i-player link below is very informative:

How to Make a Brexit

36 minutes duration, it will be available until 13th January 2016.
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[neptune]

I will definitly vote to leave. If the will is there, we could leave without the two years notice. What are they going to do, send a gunboat? Nuke us? Seek the approval of all the other members? On the occasions when I decide to quit a job, I didn`t go around asking all the other staff for permission to leave, I just headed for the door.As I see it, once we say "I quit" we are out. As soon as we stop sending them money, they will not be able to get rid of us quick enough. This kind of bullshit is the very reason we need to be out.

 

[oldtom]

With a referendum in due course on whether we stay or leave, it's as well that all know what's involved in leaving

This emotive subject is to be put to the British electorate in a referendum. It beggars belief that such ill-informed people should be permitted to vote on an as-yet unknown question without some education relevant to such an enormous decision.

I think there is sense in a series of public, televised debates long before the date of such a referendum so that a different referendum can be arranged. That referendum would be to determine whether Britain should actually hold an in-out referendum.

As someone who shares my time between two EU countries and can appreciate the different perspectives which exist, I am firmly committed to maintaining our EU membership but would like to see some re-negotiation towards better balancing the cost disparity between the various member states.

Exiting the union really isn't an option and would see Britain not only sidelined but probably rendered irrelevant in all international forums, perhaps even NATO, (No Action - Talk Only). With no major manufacturing industry and an enormous reliance on imported produce - our important public utilities largely owned by foreign companies - it's difficult for me to understand which countries would be happy to trade with the UK on mutually agreed terms.

Of course, I might be quite wrong and the Europhobes could be proved right with Britain going on to blossom, once again becoming a major trading power and respected around the world.

Tom

 

[flecc]

I will definitly vote to leave. If the will is there, we could leave without the two years notice. What are they going to do, send a gunboat? Nuke us? Seek the approval of all the other members? On the occasions when I decide to quit a job, I didn`t go around asking all the other staff for permission to leave, I just headed for the door.As I see it, once we say "I quit" we are out. As soon as we stop sending them money, they will not be able to get rid of us quick enough. This kind of bullshit is the very reason we need to be out.

Not bullshit though, it's what we agreed to when we joined.

Of course we could be dishonourable and walk out, but that would only be injuring us since we'd be shutting down our EU export market without anything to replace it immediately.

Leaving would hurt a bit, but walking out abruptly would very severely hurt us in many ways, since not only would the EU punish us, the Americans would be very annoyed too. Life could be very uncomfortable with bad neighbours on both sides, not to mention the harm done to our international reputation for being trustworthy.
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[gray198]

surely trade is a two way thing. We hear all the scare stories about not being able to export to Europe, but surely they rely very heavily on exporting to us. Thinking BMW Volkswagen Audi, bloody Golden delicious apples to name just a few. Are they going to want to lose all that??. I am not convinced by all the scare stories. I just think it's time we got some politicians with a backbone who won't keep selling us down the river

 

[flecc]

surely trade is a two way thing. We hear all the scare stories about not being able to export to Europe, but surely they rely very heavily on exporting to us. Thinking BMW Volkswagen Audi, bloody Golden delicious apples to name just a few. Are they going to want to lose all that??. I am not convinced by all the scare stories. I just think it's time we got some politicians with a backbone who won't keep selling us down the river

Indeed a two way thing, but in this case almost 7 to 1 imbalance.

The mainland EU market is huge to us, but the UK market is very small to them. And of course we will lose the car factories if we leave the union, they'll shift onto the mainland EU very quickly if we leave and have trade barriers. That is why I replied to Neptune above that we can't afford to just walk away immediately, we negotiate in an attempt to stay in, but we'll equally have to negotiate to leave to avoid huge harm to ourselves.
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[trex]

even if the exit camp wins the referendum, it's clear that the current conservative government would not want to leave the EU. They will keep negotiating for as long as necessary until they can organize next referendum. Don't think a labour government has any more appetite for leaving either.

 

[gray198]

Indeed a two way thing, but in this case almost 7 to 1 imbalance.

The mainland EU market is huge to us, but the UK market is very small to them. And of course we will lose the car factories if we leave the union, they'll shift onto the mainland EU very quickly if we leave and have trade barriers. That is why I replied to Neptune above that we can't afford to just walk away immediately, we negotiate in an attempt to stay in, but we'll equally have to negotiate to leave to avoid huge harm to ourselves.
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the problem with this is that we are not being given correct information by either side. I remember the original vote for a common market which seems like a sensible idea, but why have our politicians allowed unelected civil servants in Brussels to tell us what to do and make our laws. If that's to be the case what is the point of voting for our politicians who are only mouthpieces for Europe. May as well cut the middleman out and save all those salaries and expenses and the cost of Westminster

 

[flecc]

the problem with this is that we are not being given correct information by either side. I remember the original vote for a common market which seems like a sensible idea, but why have our politicians allowed unelected civil servants in Brussels to tell us what to do and make our laws. If that's to be the case what is the point of voting for our politicians who are only mouthpieces for Europe. May as well cut the middleman out and save all those salaries and expenses and the cost of Westminster

Unfortunately that combining of laws and economies is the only way the EU could work. To do away with all barriers to trade intrinsically means equalisation of other factors. Our trouble is mainly that we are the villain of the piece by not co-operating properly, wanting the benefits but not what that involves.
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[mike killay]

I just want out.
fed up with being lied to by trousering, snouting, gravy train riding politicians.
Fed up with a total lack of democracy.
'Lisbon' Brown the total traitor's head should be on top of St. Paul's Cathedral like in the old days.

 

[the_killjoy]

The point is that it is not the EU that trades with us it is the individual companies within Europe that trade, why should they stop?

... and will all those ebike buyers and sellers on Ebay refuse to trade with the UK

 

[trex]

As I was watching Patrick Minford making the case for us quitting the EU to the Select Committee, he was saying that our exports to the EU accounts for 9% of GDP therefore the costs [on 100% of the economy]/benefits is not justified, I am not convinced. I think the reasons to leave are sentimental rather than hard headed economics.

 

[Croxden]

Can you believe any figures they give out? It seems they use what ever they come accross that suits their belief or political aims.

Most numbers are made up, who's able to challenge. 90% of people agree with me.

 

[mike killay]

91.4765% of people agree with me.
(A figure like that sounds more authentic)

 

[flecc]

The point is that it is not the EU that trades with us it is the individual companies within Europe that trade, why should they stop?

Tariff barriers, that's why, we lose the equality of market if we leave.

And of course there's the imbalance of us if we leave potentially losing a market of over 400 millions while they only lose 60 millions.
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[flecc]

I think the reasons to leave are sentimental rather than hard headed economics.

Spot on Trex. The pro staying in side produce facts, while the leave the EU side just express emotion and rage.

The antis seem to live in a dream world of rosy specs where everything was wonderful before we joined and could be again if we leave.

Of course the truth is very different. Before 1971 we were a much poorer nation in sharp decline. Very few owned cars in the 1950s and 1960s, over half of all households didn't even own a fridge and overseas holidays were the province of the wealthy. We didn't have only 20% VAT, instead we had 33% purchase tax on the important things and 66% tax on what government deemed luxuries but were in fact often quite ordinary items. We couldn't even negotiate a price since suppliers profited from fixed prices by law with RPM.

If that's what they think was democracy and they think it was what people voted for, they're plain bonkers. Give me today's democracy any time, still far from ideal but much better than back then. The EU was the best thing that happened to us in the entire 20th century, for our living standards, our rights and our protection.
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[Croxden]

So flecc, are you for or against. Stop fudging.

 

[flecc]

So flecc, are you for or against. Stop fudging.

Surprising as it might seem, I'm personally not bothered either way, since I'm well insulated against any ill effects and won't be around into many future decades.

But I still don't like to see the country being steered into a completely irrational decision by emotion and fantasy.
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[mike killay]

Yes, for me it is a bit emotional.
But I voted all those years ago to join the Common Market, not the fourth Reich.

 

[flecc]

Yes, for me it is a bit emotional.
But I voted all those years ago to join the Common Market, not the fourth Reich.

Then that was your mistake Mike. I agree that was how our politicians expressed the advantages, but it wasn't the truth. From the Treaty of Rome long before we finally joined, it was obvious that ever increasing union with a common economy and currency was the target, and that means common law.

The EU can't be blamed for the British politicians misrepresentation or the fact that so many voters failed to look into what was on offer.

I disagree with your emotive comment that we have a fourth Reich. By any measure Germany isn't running the show, they are merely succeeding as a result of their hard work and full cooperation in the union. If we'd properly and wholeheartedly participated in the same way and made as much effort, we might well have been an equally leading nation of the union now.

Instead we've merely been a stroppy and disruptive influence, undermining at every opportunity. I'm openly ashamed of this country's dishonourable behaviour.
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