Lockdown Taxi service

D

Deleted member 33385

Guest
Replacing black cabs with e-rickshaws would be not be bad thing! Probably faster and certainly better for the environment and road congestion.
It'd help a lot of people avoid getting infected. Rickshaws with passengers at the back are very heavy, and it'd be great if existing bikes could be adapted... does anyone know of any ready-made bike carts for front-facing bike passengers, with wheels steered by the bike's front wheel, through a wireless steering system? I wonder what the legal position is, if both the cart and bike were both powered by independent 250W motors? I know that a lot of taxi firms are struggling at the moment. Even extremely unfit ex-black cab drivers, might be able to manage a package like that.
 
Last edited:

PP100

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 28, 2020
252
149
Good in principle for those who stay legit but but the London rickshaws that operated before last year got a really bad reputation as the shoddy providers take advantage of the opportunity.


 
  • Like
Reactions: pentiumofborg
D

Deleted member 33385

Guest
Illegal on two counts, or three counts depending on which form of defence was employed.
.
My defence is that the ebike and passenger-carrying pedal-assist etrike were not physically connected, but the ebike is controlling the speed and direction of travel of the passenger-carrying (minimally) pedal assisted (by the passenger(s)) etrike via wireless synchronisation, therefore they should be defined as two separate fully legal 250W pedal assisted vehicles. There really would not be much passenger pedalling at all - despite not being physically connected, the passenger vehicle would nonetheless be pushed along by the ebike, by what we can refer to for now, as "Magic". The passenger's pedal assist would have zero influence on the travelling speed of the unconnected vehicles (while unconnectedly connected by "Magic", but when totally unconnected - the passenger etrike would function as an actual etrike): merely a token to achieve legality and nothing more.

p.s. My design for the "Magic" may well be a complete failure... It's on my list entitled "Prototypes to make".

If the above is completely unviable from a legal point of view, it'd be far safer to provide 250W push trailers for any normal bike which could be hired, instead of those wildly unsafe escooter contraptions.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 33385

Guest
Good in principle for those who stay legit but but the London rickshaws that operated before last year got a really bad reputation as the shoddy providers take advantage of the opportunity.


Rickshaws are extremely heavy, of course they'll try and get away with installing massive motors! It always amazes me that such scrawny looking stick-like richshaw drivers in Thailand, India and other countries manage to move them at all.
 

PP100

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 28, 2020
252
149
Rickshaws are extremely heavy, of course they'll try and get away with installing massive motors! It always amazes me that such scrawny looking stick-like richshaw drivers in Thailand, India and other countries manage to move them at all.
E rickshaws causing problems in India. Apparently human only (ie non cycle) drawn rickshaws were banned in the early 1950s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pentiumofborg

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,126
8,226
60
West Sx RH
Rickshaw's or similar can all have a larger motor and be legal if they all follow the requirements to be legal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pentiumofborg

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,375
My defence is that the ebike and passenger-carrying pedal-assist etrike were not physically connected, but the ebike is controlling the speed and direction of travel of the passenger-carrying (minimally) pedal assisted (by the passenger(s)) etrike via wireless synchronisation, therefore they should be defined as two separate fully legal 250W pedal assisted vehicles.
Not so, the e-bike doing th controlling means it is one vehicle and not a legal one. Uniquely in British law all motorised vehicles are banned from public roads unless specifically permitted for each classified type. That permission is obtained by either type approval or an exemption under type approval law. Our pedelecs operate under such an exemption provides they comply with the terms of that exemption. Your design could not be type approved or exempted on safety grounds due to the overall laws governing pedelc design.

it'd be far safer to provide 250W push trailers for any normal bike which could be hired, instead of those wildly unsafe escooter contraptions.
Oncee again illegal at present since there is no permission for a powered trailer pushing or following pedelec. In fact there's are a tiny number such vehicles in Britain and the Netherlands operating under "under the radar" at users risk due to there being so little policing of pedelcs. Once again no chance of type approval without parliament passing new law first, though a short time limited trial might be permitted akin to the very restricted one for scooters at present.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pentiumofborg

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,986
Basildon
Good in principle for those who stay legit but but the London rickshaws that operated before last year got a really bad reputation as the shoddy providers take advantage of the opportunity.


I wonder how many of those 65 seized bikes were in the same situation as the case I was involved in recently, where the police meaured the peak power from the battery instead of checking the continuous rated power of the motor. As it's impossible to measure the continuous rated power, I suspect all of them unless some of those rickshaw drivers were stupid enough to leave a label on their motor that said 1000W.

When the police use completely the wrong method to measure the power and then apply the wrong standard, the average rickshaw rider probably wouldn't have a clue. Even most of the guys on this forum don't understand what the rules are or how they should be applied, so I suspect many of those owners were probably wrongly convicted and had their livelihoods stolen from them by over zealous and ignorant police. The police were going to crush the one I was involved with, which was completely legal. It was saved on the day before its planned execution.

BTW, does anybody know what the law is today. Was there a process or statute that transitioned the pre- Brexit regulations or determined that the old ones should stand. What document, edict, statute or other specifies what UK standard should be applied. I've never seen one. Don't say the government website because what it says there makes just about every forum member's ebike illegal.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pentiumofborg
D

Deleted member 33385

Guest
E rickshaws causing problems in India. Apparently human only (ie non cycle) drawn rickshaws were banned in the early 1950s.
..and many using lead-acid batteries?!?! The £1600 price tag for a new e-rickshaw quoted in that article seems like a good deal - likely sans battery, even a lead-acid one.
 
D

Deleted member 33385

Guest
Not so, the e-bike doing th controlling means it is one vehicle and not a legal one.
What if the front passenger-carrying etrike (pushed by "Magic Type II"[not strictly necessary]), contained an autonomous AI - not in direct communication or in any way controlled by the ebike's controller - this AI would have learned to maintain a journey compatible position, speed and direction to the ebike behind it. Two completely independent and legal vehicles, your honour... the etrike AI merely has an ebike fetish, and is free to learn new skills if it wishes, get a degree, job, mortgage, house, spawn new (initially, inexplicably) smaller AIs using spares etc. just like the rest of us.

Uniquely in British law all motorised vehicles are banned from public roads unless specifically permitted for each classified type. That permission is obtained by either type approval or an exemption under type approval law.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/exemptions-from-vehicle-approval

Do all tracked vehicles have an exemption? I'm being silly of course but add a battery, motor, cotroller and a track and you've got an exemption?


Or would London cabbies find tracked erickshaws easier to get approved?

https://historygarage.com/strange-or-visionary-tracked-motorcycles-of-the-past/

All you would need to do with this, is weld on some seats and a beach umbrella:

https://www.bikesure.co.uk/bikesureblog/2017/03/50000-for-the-ultimate-go-anywhere-german-motorcycle.html

there is no permission for a powered trailer pushing or following pedelec. In fact there's are a tiny number such vehicles in Britain and the Netherlands operating under "under the radar" at users risk due to there being so little policing of pedelcs. Once again no chance of type approval without parliament passing new law first, though a short time limited trial might be permitted akin to the very restricted one for scooters at present.
So the only route to saving black cabbie jobs through use of push trailers, available for hire for use on any (probably black) bicycle, is to create a business plan>Attract massive Silicon Valley vulture capital>Float on stock market as an Initial Public Offering>Short the price of the usual rapid fall in stock value after the IPO>Hide the money made from shorting the IPO in the Canaries>Offer select UK gov officials a shady deal promoting electric push trailers designed to maim or kill fewer pedestrians, riders and drivers than escooters? The Black Cabbies can save their own jobs.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 33385

Guest
I wonder how many of those 65 seized bikes were in the same situation as the case I was involved in recently, where the police meaured the peak power from the battery instead of checking the continuous rated power of the motor. As it's impossible to measure the continuous rated power, I suspect all of them unless some of those rickshaw drivers were stupid enough to leave a label on their motor that said 1000W.

When the police use completely the wrong method to measure the power and then apply the wrong standard, the average rickshaw rider probably wouldn't have a clue. Even most of the guys on this forum don't understand what the rules are or how they should be applied, so I suspect many of those owners were probably wrongly convicted and had their livelihoods stolen from them by over zealous and ignorant police. The police were going to crush the one I was involved with, which was completely legal. It was saved on the day before its planned execution.

Imagine if you'd saved 65 e-rickshaws... you'd never need to walk anywhere ever again!

BTW, does anybody know what the law is today. Was there a process or statute that transitioned the pre- Brexit regulations or determined that the old ones should stand. What document, edict, statute or other specifies what UK standard should be applied. I've never seen one. Don't say the government website because what it says there makes just about every forum member's ebike illegal.

What ready-made ebikes or ebike kits ARE completely legal anyway? A friend of mine refuses to buy a Befang BBS01b because it's PAS speed limit can be changed, therefore strictly speaking it's illegal - the same as a derestricting switch. At the moment, the only people capable of restricting that part of the firmware is Bafang... and if anyone else was capable of restricting the max PAS speed, Bafang owners could be accused of owning an illegal ebike capable of derestriction at a user level.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,375
does anybody know what the law is today. Was there a process or statute that transitioned the pre- Brexit regulations or determined that the old ones should stand. What document, edict, statute or other specifies what UK standard should be applied. I've never seen one. Don't say the government website because what it says there makes just about every forum member's ebike illegal.
It's still the same EU law, including EN15194. In Autumn 2019 Theresa May's Great Repeal Bill was accepted by both houses of parliament, turning all accepted prior adopted EU law into UK Law, that to easily deal with the impossibility of passing new UK laws for all EU laws accepted over the last 44 years.
.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,803
30,375
Do all tracked vehicles have an exemption? I'm being silly of course but add a battery, motor, cotroller and a track and you've got an exemption?
No.

Nearest is Exemption G:

"Vehicles primarily intended for off-road use and designed to travel on unpaved surfaces"

Clearly not applying to road use pedicabs.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pentiumofborg
D

Deleted member 33385

Guest
No.

Nearest is Exemption G:

"Vehicles primarily intended for off-road use and designed to travel on unpaved surfaces"

Clearly not applying to road use pedicabs.
.
You really know your onions flecc! You're not just great at making awesome bike trailers! We'll have to watch out for any new UK legislation.
 
Last edited: